[Music]
can you hear
me all right um
so um being a Founder uh of el2 beat uh
I do have a unique opportunity to work
with uh essentially every single L2 uh
Team out there and we've been working
with them since uh very beginning of
this space which is like four years ago
that's incredible uh time flies by very
quickly um we've worked with the early
Pioneers in ZK Tech uh we've worked with
the uh plasma group that renamed to
optimism we've worked with um arbitrum
and uh from this stage I do want to
acknowledge uh all these teams because
without your support we certainly
wouldn't be here and uh as L2 beat we
are extremely extremely thankful uh for
all the support that the community gives
us so uh let's have a look what we've
managed to achieve well uh first of all
we've managed to launch almost 50
rollups and over 50 LDA l2s that's
incredible achievement it's a lot of
systems and we've got almost as many to
launch in the coming months uh now we've
put a lot of value a lot of TVs on these
systems as well and if you look at the
charts they all going up only um the
thing is that you know we've all that
growth vers also a lot of responsibility
so we do need to like uh understand that
end users who are using these systems
they are putting money into these
rollups because they do believe that
rollups inherit the security of ethereum
and with that kind of realization uh my
opinion uh we need to start getting
serious about security uh We've also
managed to uh scale ethereum I mean um
ethereum was charmming along quite fine
but it started to get really really slow
for the demand and the fees were uh
getting really really high so surely we
are scaling these numbers also go up uh
this is incredible um however uh there
is but
you know guys there's always but right
and uh I'm just here uh to be honest
with all of you and I really want this
space to get serious and this is my
opportunity to uh uh to call uh for your
support uh to make sure that we don't
fail we don't fail the expectations of
the community that we're starting to uh
be really serious about the security of
what we're building because you know we
like using training wheels for too long
if you're an adult using training wheels
and I repeat uh it's been 4 years uh
then you kind of like are really
immature right so it's okay to use
training wheels if you're a child it's
not okay to use training wheels if
you're an adult and I think it's time
for all of us really to stop being shy
about it we really should all speak out
and we shouldn't really suffer from uh
emperis uh uh clo syndrome
so what is this big butt well first of
all most l2s today do not have a proof
system which is kind of surprising
because early Pioneers like starnet like
uh ZK sync like Aztec four years ago
when they were launching their first
application specific rollups they did
have a proof systems so yes you can
launch today an L2 with one click of a
button however is that really an L2 is
that really an rollup you know you're
doing is you're launching something
which is secured by the multisig I don't
think that's good enough and the state
state of the ecosystem today is kind of
like this on this diagram so on the left
you can see the current l2s with the
proof system on the right you can see uh
current to to's current without the
proof system and I would bet that the
vast majority of upcoming l2s will not
have a proof system that would include
essentially every single op stack chain
except except for op Manet and Bas and
kudos to them by the way you know they
like
Champions um however every single op
stack chain simply does not have a proof
system that chart uh on your uh right uh
will also include all the orbit Stacks
which uh they do have a proof system
however it's actually behind often very
very short permissioned wh list and
sometimes this Whit list is just one
actor it's the same as uh State proposal
it's essentially ver is a state proposal
and it's only them who can challenge
themselves
like what DF like
seriously now most elt do not use
security councils what do we mean by the
security Council Security Council
essentially is a multisig that consists
of at least eight participants and
require 75% consensus threshold so you
can think of it as a big MSE but it's
not just about the size I mean size may
be important but you know it's not about
that right it's about the fact that we
want the participants to be
geographically decentralized you might
have heard yesterday you know an amazing
field d uh presentation about you know
the need for uh Geo diversification
that's what we want uh from these
structures and essentially we want the
participants uh most importantly to come
from different companies and different
jurisdictions
uh that's super important I'm going to
show you some examples like why uh
however think about the U security
councils as those supercharged multi6
right there's a very very important
social lar uh behind them so this is the
current state of things and again you
know it's very very bad we only have
Security councils in arbitrum optimism
uh polygon ZK sync and I know that Stark
net uh scroll uh interestingly fuel uh
is launching with uh a security Council
everybody else is essentially a very
small uh internal often uh multis and
and frankly it is extremely hard to tell
the difference between uh these multi
and and simple EAS so uh the
third big item that we I think did wrong
is that most all theas meaning non
rollups uh are set up with abysmal da
trust assumptions and I use the word
abysmal a because I like it and B
because it's really really bad uh like
look at these guys on the left there are
few examples again arbitrum ver ver
immutable X however almost everybody
else is like literally posting da to
their server in the basement or whatever
I mean we have no idea we have literally
no idea point is they're really bad and
they don't seem to care so much so maybe
users don't care we don't know but you
know we need to really uh look at these
that data and tell everybody hey uh
that's not data availability committee
data availability committee originally
was like created by uh in Champion by
star quare for the uh starx
implementations and by arbitrum but that
was not the point that you can like say
hey I've got a one survey in my basement
I can like call it data availity
committee that's not what was uh the
point of all that exercise so all
together I'm sorry to say that but at
the moment uh in most l2s permissioned
operators can steal or freeze your funds
and we're here really to hey make you
all aware of that sorry to say that but
we need to change the tud right so uh
why should we care about proof systems
there are at least three good reasons in
our opinion why should we all have a
working proof system one is that that
actually allows you for permissionless
exit in case all the operators are down
and they may be down for whatever reason
we had uh quite recently a case of dydx
going down they have warned the users uh
a lot of users didn't exit however if
you do have a uh proof system you can
make the system so that in a
permissionless way someone's going to
take over or you can build an escape
hatch users will be a able to get their
funds out that's super important uh
without the proof system you just simply
cannot do that it's impossible then
uh the second one is that you can
actually improve on the trust
assumptions of the security Council
that's assuming of course you have one
and the reason for that this is quite
Nuance uh however what uh you can do now
is that instead of situation when the
malicious proposer and this is like the
diagram showing the the vanilla
optimistic up without the proof system
which you can see in a lot of op stxs
today there's a let's say very strong
multis that can override the state root
and there's a proposer that proposes
State rot so if that proposal is
malicious all they need to do is to
bribe to members of the security Council
to look away not to do anything
malicious to just simply don't do
anything in which case the malicious
proposer will actually go through and
they will steal the fund right now once
you introduce the proof system situation
is much much harder for the proposer
because now they need to bribe the
majority of the security Council not
only they have to bribe majority they
have to actually make them do something
malicious and not just simply look away
that's a very very different proposition
to make someone look away is to say hey
if I give you you know $10 million you
just you know lose your keys right or go
for a long international flight if you
want to make someone do something
malicious that's an entirely different
proposition so we think that this
changes especially with the public
Security Council uh trust assumptions
fundamentally finally proof systems uh
uh if you're stage two allow you to
remove any intermediaries whatsoever you
don't need a security Council uh or if
you do have it you know it's only for
like emergency situations if you like
right so that may have actually profound
regularity uh regulatory implications so
you may actually want to launch your uh
L2 as a stage two system from the very
start that's possible uh but of course
you know you do need a uh to have proof
system ideally you might want to have
more than one and there are already some
announcements of systems uh doing that
so this is one of the uh the latest
announcement from the ne mine team you
know they will be building a a roll
which is intended to be a stage two at
launch so uh again uh that was about the
proof system now why security councils
and not just simple multi sees and the
the reason is
that don't believe multi are multi
that's the reason unless there's a
social layer that actually can convince
you that these are uh fundamentally
Diversified we we've had uh several uh
big uh events uh in our history we had
multi-chain uh that uh claimed you know
they were very uh decentralized and out
that uh no they were not and this is the
claim that you cannot really verify
independently yourself uh huge uh um
attack or inside job or rug we are not
sure then we had a situation with Oasis
where uh they were approached by UK
court and they had to actually use the
multi uh to extract some funds from the
protocol uh it would be impossible to do
that if you had a geopolitically
diversified Security Council to do that
because there's no court order that can
actually reach uh everybody um finally
quite recently you know we had a
essentially attack on the mtis you know
don't think for a second that multi6 can
be attacked eventually we had to uh we
have to get rid of all of them so to sum
up we think uh this is the correct way
to think about these systems and they
security uh if you have a stage zero
rollup with no security consult
essentially uh malicious operator can do
whatever they want with your funds uh if
you are stage zero rollup with a
security Council then uh you can try to
bribe uh Security Council minority
that's uh maybe a hard thing to do but
you know much much easier
than bribing the security Council
majority which you will need to do if
you're malicious if your rollup is uh
has aov system and finally no one can
steal your funds if you're stage two
that's the promise of getting to stage
two so the question is do we have the
right incentives you know for for for uh
projects to actually care and the
problem is that the only thing that we
can do uh we as L2 beat and we as
ethereum Community is to apply social
pressure uh so this is vitalic saying
that you know starting next year he will
plan only publicly mention l2s that are
stage one he uh previously even said
that he's not going to call the system
rollups if they're not stage one and
this is what you can see today on l2b
you know it's very hard really to say uh
what is the security of your system
right so we were wondering what can you
do at the moment we have a stages for
rollups we don't have these stages for
validum optimium
and you know we were wondering for a
long time hey you know what maybe we
could like introduce stage zero plus for
proof systems uh like rollups which are
not stage one however they are like
better than stage zero but after months
of discussion we decided no guys it is
time to grow up essentially and uh we we
really need to break
[Applause]
this so uh what we're proposing to the
community and this is going to go on the
Forum and uh you know with the uh um
Community feedback uh that's what we
want to do first of all we want to sort
of create a separate category for
systems kind of similar today the main
difference is that you will have to have
a proof system uh to be stage zero so
for example uh Stark net today will be
stage zero under this classification uh
all the op stack chains don't have a
proof system except based on optimism
they will not fall into this category
right uh and of course you know we will
give time for uh uh for uh systems to
adjust so that's like the main category
and that should be like a super league
right of systems then you have another
category of systems that are not using
ethereum da so they do use additional uh
trust assumptions that come with da uh
we call them all da but they would
include validium Optimum and whatever
you know hybrid construction you may
actually uh create uh however they have
to give you reasonable de guarantees
that cannot be your basement that has to
be you know reasonably sized data
availability committee or if you're
using Celestia if you're using a veil
you need to use uh the bridge and you
will have to use the bridge because you
need to have a proof system so what
about the others uh they will still be
able to uh we will put them into the
third category which we call and now I'm
wait wai waiting for the community
feedback you know how do we call these
systems so our working name is others uh
you may find whatever name the point is
they are secured by the multis right and
we will expose these multis for what
they are that's what we want to do in
our UI so essentially uh the UI is going
to look roughly like this uh you will
see this breakdown you will see rollups
you will see validium and optimums and
you will see others and the default
sorting will be by security not by the
tvl right let's not Chase tvl with the
bad security that's not the point that's
going to end really really
[Applause]
badly so um we will promote stage one
and stage two projects and we will look
at stage zero projects as contenders for
the others we're happy to list them you
know we will be extremely uh liberal uh
you just need to be
uh essentially aligned with ethereum uh
you will need to obviously have a bridge
you know that would allow you to like
move funds however we will look at the
trust assumptions we'll look at the
multi6 and we hope that slowly but
surely you know we will move from others
uh to either validum andum or to rollups
right but this is what we kind of think
the add this category would look like uh
this is the real data right now the real
systems that may fall into the others
category if they don't uh introduce the
proof system you will see exactly you
know who's the proposer who's the
Challenger and who's the upgrader funny
thing is you can see that today on l2b
is just that you know this information
is so uh hidden deeply uh in The Details
page that you know I bet that only
researchers uh and enthusiasts check out
the data it's all available today
however we do want to expose the data to
end users we want end users to be uh
truly aware of what's going on so that
we are all accountable for the system
that we're
building so is it enough to just say hey
I've got a proof system you know am I in
this first category well it's not uh our
pledge to the community as L2 beat is
that the next year we're going to put
significant resources into actually
looking super hard and very deep into
these proof systems to make sure that
they are sound they are uh
uh complete uh we will analyze both ZK
and optimistic uh you may have seen uh
some of the talks from the morning you
know how we approach uh looking at the
uh um fraud proof systems we will do
essentially the same for the ZK uh we
will go into the source code we will
look at how you uh created your trusted
setup we will look at your circuits and
see what exactly is being verified on
chain right we want to make everything
super uh transparent so that trust
assumptions uh they must be clearly
communicated and more importantly your
proof system cannot be hidden uh behind
unreasonably small white list right so
uh we're hiring researchers uh we will
do all that work and uh this is our
pledge uh for the next year to come I
hope the next year is going to be uh the
year of uh l2s and rollups however it's
not about I can launch my uh rollup with
one click of a button that's not the
point the point is you want to launch
and you want to be able to launch a
system with uh good security uh ideally
you want to in inherit as much security
as possible from ethereum uh and there's
a lot of work to do uh for all of us to
actually reach that but if we don't do
that then all we're doing is uh
essentially creating uh thousands of
secure uh side chains we don't want that
uh I think as a community so with that
thank you very much and uh join us for
the FL let's give him a big
hands wow thank you thank you I think we
are eum Community really appreciate your
work and yes you just cook them on the
stage I love it okay let's do the Q&A is
it important that Ros have decentralized
that sequencer or other safety or Med
mechanism are sufficient so this is a
very very uh good and important question
uh I uh think that are different designs
that uh we will uh see I don't think
decentralizing sequester is like super
important for the security of users
funds but it may be important for the uh
realtime censorship resistance in
certain situations uh vitalic said uh
during his opening keynote that the
future might be that you know we might
see rollups going based uh leveraging
ethereum uh infrastructure to uh combat
realtime uh sensorship resistance While
others like say mega e they might
actually have very centralized sequence
and they may rely only on the escape
hatch uh we might see hybrid
constructions I think the design space
is huge uh and uh right now you know we
like observers SL SL2 beat right you
know we really want to see what's going
to happen and you know how that's going
to play out all right thank you uh next
one will te based proof system be
considered stage two even if they imply
trust in Hardware manufacturer um so the
short answer is no uh because um with
the constructions that we see today uh
essentially uh if you're ising as GX
Intel could submit a proof uh and they
could potentially uh block steel freeze
whatever they want uh without anyone
really noticing and without ethereum
noticing uh however with all that work
that's being put forward you know to
create the trustless permissionless tees
maybe uh I'm being told that you know
this is actually work that's extremely
exciting however short answer today no
okay why is optimism classified as St
one wow based on the evaluation they're
not as the foundation control proposal
Pro is in it
entirely well I mean they uh they
essentially uh meet all the uh criteria
so it's not really
about the proposal process is about you
know who's controlling the funds and you
can have a centralized um proposal uh
however there's a fallback so you know
if they go down uh then the whole system
becomes more of a permission l so I
think it's important to recognize that
also what is the role of the security
councel and what not right we want
stage1 systems to allow you to exit if
the centralized proposer stops so for
example with the idx you know there was
The Proposal was super centralized
however when they stopped you know
people could exit right so it's not
about whether you centralized or
decentralized is about whether you can
actually exit in the permissionless way
um they met all the uh criteria I mean
we were refining by the way I mean
criteria is not something that's set in
stone because all these systems are
evolving right so we need to evolve uh
with these systems so the criteria might
be changing a little bit and we are
looking very very closely and both
optimism and arbitrum because clearly
they like the two leaders there are a
lot of nuances that I don't have time to
go into but uh uh but yeah I mean it's
not like you can you have this stage uh
designation forever right so if if
there's something like a new information
or whatever that we might have skipped
or missed you know it's quite possible
that you may lose this designation all
right okay what are the core reason
projects don't build towards stage one
uh complexity time cost Talent it's
surprisingly costly and like I said the
Pioneers uh four years ago they were
essentially building for like dydx was
literally the first one of the first if
not the first uh ZK rollup it was
application specific but still it was
the first and if not for small nuances
it would be stage two really uh it's the
governance process that we require you
know uh for stage two that's failing but
you know like for all intents and
purposes is a stage two system it was
built four years ago so it's not like
it's impossible I think what makes it
you know super hard today for for all
the Roll-Ups to actually do that frankly
is that the majority of the rollups are
not built by the teams you know they
launched by the rollup as a service
providers and we need to incentivize
them to actually like do
better right so uh and it's hard yeah I
mean no one said that it would be easy
all right thank you and we running off
time thank you Mr Bic and yes let's give
him big hands yeah I'm sure we
appreciate your hard work and your
researching team thank you thank you all
right it's lunchtime and