[Music]
uh hello uh so I'm Orin I'm uh from
starkware and starkware is one of the
main teams building Stark net which is a
public general purpose zarola built on
top of ethereum and what I want to do
here is share some of
our do I need to yeah it share some of
our things around how to build like a
rollup which is a uh indeed future proof
and we're building it using proof so
there is some double meaning here uh now
another angle of this is if you're
building an app and you're thinking of
which chain you should Deploy on uh this
should also tell you some of the things
you probably should be thinking
about not
working okay so this is what I'm going
to cover uh briefly how we see web 3
today
uh touch some types of networks that are
there you probably heard layer ones
layer twos validity rollups optimistic
rollups public chains app chains I'm
going to touch that a bit and then uh
I'll mention the few aspects that we
think at least are important in the
chain some of them are like the harder
uh technology and infrastructure stuff
some which are not less important are
more around Vision Values and Community
the softer
aspects okay so we probably know this uh
uh graph uh what I would like to claim
is that blockchain today is still in one
of these leftmost phases it still has
not made it to
mainstream uh and why aren't we
mainstream yet well a large part of it
is that the infrastructure is not there
or it at least wasn't there until
recently especially in terms of scale
cost and ux and the thing that's greatly
needed is some killer apps like there
there really aren't that many kill or
probably aren't any killer apps right
now in crypto that has made it main
mainstream okay so we have layer ones
and layer twos uh generally speaking
ethereum and and also Bitcoin are really
great layer ones vitalic mentioned it
his opening yesterday layer one is
really the trust machine uh they're
secure they're decentralized
permissionless censorship resistant
credibly neutral all those nice words uh
but they also have strong networks they
have lots of users lots of operators
lots of liquidity writing on top of them
they're usually field proven lots of
apps writing on top of them but uh
they're severely limited and mainly from
these aspects in terms of scale in terms
of cost and also in terms of
ux so you have then you have some other
lay ones that apparently solve this but
if you look closely they usually do that
by compromising the trust so they're
either not decentralized or less
decentralized or less secure uh so you
give something out for for uh for scale
and cost what layer twos try to do is
solve these limitation on a second layer
the the scale cost and ux issues and but
still keep the trust machine on those
layer ones so the trust machine is still
ethereum or or Bitcoin I'll mention that
later uh but we can provide scale and
and and cost in ux better scale cost in
ux on a on a different
layer you probably know of this as well
this is the blockchain trilemma it
basically states that you have to choose
two out of these three decentralization
scalability of security you can't have
all three why so from first principles
in order to secure to ensure security
you have to have all nodes run all the
transactions just to verify that they're
indeed
valid on the other hand to be
decentralized you need to be able to run
a node on a weak machine so everybody
could run it so the natural conclusion
is that you have to limit the throughput
so you could run all these transactions
even on a week
machine the only thing uh wrong with
this blockchain trilemma is that it
isn't really true and why isn't it true
uh and here we have uh I mean the people
who actually phrased it didn't take into
account this neographic algorithm that
that we use and others use as well
that's called validity
proofs uh so what's validity proofs it
came from Academia long before
blockchain it's not specifically related
just to blockchain it tries to solve the
following problem let's say I'm I'm
aover and you're the verifier I want to
uh I want to convince you that I have
done uh a complex computation correctly
so what I do is in addition to doing the
actual computation I I do some
additional work and I generate a proof
the format of of the proof is defined by
the protocol I send you the proof you're
the verifier the verifier looks at the
proof and decides whether it accepts it
or not and there are three things we
want here one is that if the computation
is indeed correct I should be able to
generate a proof that you the verifier
will accept two is if the computation is
not correct I should not be able to to
uh generate a proof that the verifier
will accept which basically means that I
I am not able to cheat I can't convince
you of something that's not true and the
third is that we want the verification
cost to be small so verifications should
be should be a lot faster and a lot less
resource intensive than the original
computation the one that I'm doing so
there are a bunch of protocols that do
that star which is the one that we're
using has some very good properties uh
but this is basically a solve problem
again not necessarily in
blockchain so how can how do we use it
here so validity rollups uh which is
what we're doing as well basically says
the
following okay I'll start with the with
the the issue that I mentioned before
without proofs there are two aspects
here you have the sequencers or miners
or validators whatever you call those uh
entities that generate the blocks they
have to execute all
transactions but in blockchain such as
ethereum and and Bitcoin that's not
enough you have to have all full nod so
you're full node you want to know what's
happening with the network the only way
you could be certain that this is indeed
valid is you have to execute all the
transactions yourselves and there are a
lot more nodes than than sequencers or
validators in ethereum you have maybe
millions of them right now with proofs
you actually break this uh connection uh
because all the nodes in order to know
that the transactions are correct they
don't need to reexecute them they only
need to verify the proof and like I said
before verifying a proof is a lot less
work than than running the transactions
and this is the only way that I know of
that actually solves this
trilemma all other ways typically if you
look at it closely you probably
sacrifice either security and or
decentralization to get the
scale okay another thing you probably
heard of there are public chains like
ethereum Bitcoin Stark net a public
chain there are also app chains so app
specific chains that you could spin your
own and just run whatever you want on
that and there are both are probably
needed for different use cases so we try
to categorize It generally uh when in
general would you opt to run on a public
chain typically when you either when you
care a lot about composability you want
to connect to other apps that are
already there or you want to leverage
the network effects of that chain the
users that are already there other apps
liquidity or uh or often this is the
simplest thing to do because it's it's
lower touch you just build an app you
throw it for instance on ethereum and it
runs by itself you throw it on Stark
knet it runs by itself when would you
opt for an app chain so one major
category is when you want more control
what's more control you may want to
customize the network in a different
manner than a public chain is running
you may not want to be affected by
congestion due to other apps uh you may
want privacy that on public chains you
typically don't get that's one aspect
another is uh maybe you want to capture
the network Revenue yourself or at least
part of it in the public chain typically
the miners the verifier sequencers they
get the network fees they get the the
block rewards maybe you want to uh
capture that yourself if you have a good
app the third main thing is branding and
distribution you want you may want your
own network because you want it to be
called by your name or maybe you have a
good distribution Channel you want to
bring them to your own network and not
to a public
chain okay so what's important in the
chain this plays different uh a
different role whether it's an app chain
or a main chain but all these aspects
are somewhat import important in both
and when you choose you should probably
think like where you fall on these
continues so I'm going to touch briefly
touch some of them uh I'll start with
security uh I'm often told and I think
reality shows it in many cases that
nobody cares about
security uh or at least they don't care
about security until they get hacked uh
so I claim that you should think about
security especially in
blockchain uh so I I do agree that
different block like different use cases
call for different levels of security
and then you can make concessions in
some cases but I think these are a few
things you should at least ask
yourself uh so like how strong is the
cryptography uh and yesterday's opening
remarks ralic mentioned as well do you
want it to be Quantum post Quantum
secure does that matter to you uh is it
field proving is it is it been running
for a while is a lot of economic value
writing on what's been running up until
now which is some evidence that it's
probably field proven it's probably more
sound
uh what damage can the operator do now
now here again sometimes it's a single
operator which makes it very very uh uh
important but also if it's uh it's some
decentralized network if you have like a
malicious majority for a certain period
of time what's the what's the worst
thing they could do could they steal
tokens could they just stop the network
could they censor there are different
levels of of damage that they could do
and different networks fall differently
in these
categories uh if somebody wants to
attack the network how expensive is
that uh so this this is from vitalic
talk yesterday he actually gave us a
shout out for for this thing that we've
actually done three years ago uh this
was dydx V3 which was built on uh a
product that we've built uh was an
earlier rollup it was an app chain in
this case with a single operator but now
came the time where dydx start decided
they want to wind it down and they
stopped operating network but the users
can still uh pull their funds off
because we designed this uh mechanism we
called an escaped hash that was back in
2021 but this is something that if you
don't think about beforehand you may end
up having a problem
afterwards okay one of the major things
people use uh layer Twos for is because
they solve the the throughput issue the
scalability issue so what are uh uh what
are the main things that limit the
throughput so if you look at layer ones
uh they have to execute all the
transactions all nodes execute all
transactions like I said before there
subset of the nodes that take part in
consensus but a large subset so this is
also quite
expensive uh and all the data is there
for everybody right so you have all
these things are things that potentially
limit the throughput because you want
everybody to be able to run it now the
secret sauce that we have I mentioned it
before is proofs and proofs affect scale
in two main aspects the main one is the
one I mentioned before we don't need all
the nodes to run the transactions we
just need the consensus nodes to run all
the actions these there are a lot less
of them and this means that you can do a
lot a lot more execution orders of
magnitude more execution the other
aspect is that it actually enables
submitting a lot less data to layer one
because we could just submit the state
diffs for every bunch of transactions
you don't need to have each and every
transaction with all its
data uh optimistic rollups for instance
which don't use
proofs uh either sacrifice
decentralization or they sacrifice
security because at the end of the day
if you want to make sure that the
transactions are indeed secure you still
need each and every full node to to uh
execute all the transactions and you
also need to submit all the transaction
data to layer one because you need that
for the optimistic for the fraud proof
mechanism uh so when you compare uh
validity rollups in terms of throughput
looking towards the future the main
thing you should look at is like the
execution times like how efficient is
the sequencing of that network if you
look at optimistic scoll up you you you
need to look even more strongly at that
it's going to be much more limited but
also on the
data so for instance with Stark net uh
here you could see things that these are
actual measurements from the live
Network as you could see this is greatly
increasing uh mainly since we're putting
an an extended effort on that on this
and this will continue and this will
also continue when the network is very
decentralized because as I said we don't
need all full nod to execute so this is
just the the efficiency of the
sequencers themselves
so that's throughput cost is quite
similar but not exactly the same I mean
the main difference here is that at
least with validity RS you have an
additional aspect here which is the
prover right because we need to generate
proofs indeed it's always a single node
that needs to generate a proof for a
block but it's still it's still
expensive so if you look at if you
compare validity rollups to to one
another you need to look both on the
sequencer cost and also on the on the
prover cost optimistic rollups and L uh
L ones typically don't have
that so this is the this is a similar
graph from uh the cost of storet uh as
much as I would like to take credit for
this the big drop that you see here uh
didn't have that much to do with us it
was actually due to 4844 from ethereum
uh when ethereum moved to blobs uh like
the data cost submitted to layer one
effectively went down to zero uh and
that's the big drop you see over here uh
but and that's important to realize this
is not going to stay this way I mean
it's already on the verge of congesting
now once it starts congesting it's it's
a market data prices are going to go go
up how much up we don't know probably a
lot uh and once that happens you're
going to start seeing the differences
between validity rollups and optimistic
rollups because valid rollups have an
advantage the one that I've just
described uh this is a zoom in on on
specifically on the proving uh
technology uh We've recently announced
well over six months ago the our next
Generation prover which is called St uh
it rides on an improved start protocol
which is a collaboration between us
starware and uh uh polygon zero and uh
it enables the pro to be a lot less a
lot more efficient how much more
efficient two to three orders of
magnitude more efficient so what you see
here stone is our current Pro that's
what's running in in Stark net
production today so the numbers I showed
you before our running Stone Su who's
coming out in q1 next year is going to
be 100 to 1,000x more uh efficient than
Stone what that does first it reduces
proven cost like I said proven cost is
important for validity rollups uh but on
top of that it opens new possibilities
such as client side proving maybe I'll
touch that in a second another thing
that
uh you could sometimes do with the with
Layer Two so ethereum and evm have their
own set of limitations some of which no
longer have to exist when you move to
proofs and and to layer tws uh so these
are some examples from Stark for
instance dark you have native account
abstraction so all accounts are smart
contracts this allows very uh great
flexibility I'll show you in a second
some of the things people do with it
today uh for instance it allows you to
use different cryptography for for
signing for user signing
transaction other things that you could
you could provide some some more privacy
than uh using proofs you have a wider
variety of data availability options
specifically our language is rlike so
it's easier to develop in so these are
some some of the things that used dat
and are alive on on Stark net today so
Argent that's one of the leading Wallets
on starnet uh they have two Factor
authentication you can have a gaming
session so if you play you don't have to
sign anything during the session uh you
could approve in advance up to a certain
spending limit uh braavos that's another
major wallet they have face ID so this
really gives you a a web to look and
feel when you're using it you could have
multi owners for an account you could
have spending limits iubu is a one of
the main amm on stet check it out it it
provides very good Capital efficiency
with uh the capabilities that Stark
enables you today to do uh Avenue run a
pay Master pay Master meaning the user
could send a transaction but somebody
else pays for that transaction so you
could use that oh
sorry so that could be used to provide
like you could go in we just did a a few
weeks ago we did a a stress test like a
real stress test on production with
users playing a game that did lots of
transactions they didn't have to sign in
they didn't have to install a wallet no
seed phrases they could go in with uh uh
fingerprints and just
play okay I'm um other things you could
do Dojo they provided U this game engine
that enables you to run a lot of uh game
logic on chain a lot more than you could
do on ethereum uh their longer term
vision is to use what I mentioned before
when I talked about St a client side
proving which basically says that you
could run most of the game logic
offchain on the client Des device
generate a proof and submit that to the
chain just to be verified so this is a
real GameChanger sorry the pun uh you
don't have to run all the game logic
onchain to be able to trust
it uh Giza have a similar uh
infrastructure for machine learning same
it's the same IDE similar idea you could
run a bunch of thing offchain but then
just verify onchain that you've run them
correctly and this year if you like uh
mmps try this one out it's it's pretty
amazing uh so these are the hardware
aspects related to infrastructure or
technology uh what's also important is a
bunch of software aspects related to
community to the people and to the
values of that community so when you
choose a chain I think it's also
important to look like who are the
people there what's the community like
uh what's the vision what are the values
what energy do you feel from the team
there are very big differences between
the different uh chains in that
aspect uh so for instance look at the
team behind behind it this specifically
is our starkware uh track record uh with
lots of innovation I think we're the
first ones who put uh who who productize
provs uh we're the first one who put
Layer Two rollups in
production uh Circle star I mentioned
before these things typically continue
if you have a team that's Innovative
they're going to continue to innovate
and Innovation on the infrastructure
level also affects Innovation on the
application Level as I showed you
before um in terms of vision again this
is starware Vision we want to fuel the
integrity web what's the Integrity web
so blockchains often we talk about
technical stuff we talk about
cryptography computers all these nice
little things uh I want to claim that
blockchains are primarily not about that
but they're actually much more about
these things about Community about about
Freedom about human rights about social
functions that they enable people to
do so we want to focus technology
enables that but we focus a lot more
about making sure that these things uh
are embodied in in whatever we
do uh another main thing we're working
on right now uh is actually making Stark
net air to on top of not just ethereum
but also Bitcoin which is something that
until recently we thought was not
possible either but uh with some uh
major advances in research there it
seems that once opcat is enabled this
will be possible and this is an an
article that came out last last week or
maybe even this week that actually shows
that you could even do it without opcat
it's just going to be a lot more
expensive
uh these for example these are actually
from the Stark net Foundation they're
not Stark net they're not
starkware but again check these things
out if you want to join a chain a
community like what what does the
community stand for what's important to
the people there uh and finally it's
it's still at the end of the day a
matter of people uh so it's worthwhile
like talking to the people seeing what
they're like feeling the energy uh see
what they value uh that's often a lot
more important than technical
stuff so that's it uh for my
part all right thank you thank you yes
let's give him a big round of applause
all right let's do Q&A uh yeah when
stage
two okay I start with first question
about Bitcoin okay Bitcoin is weaker
than ethereum no no no the the the first
one when stage two ah when
stage two rollups uh so we are working
on on decentralization as we speak uh
it's coming out in phases so we have
started uh uh Gathering people to start
staking at First St they still don't
play a part in consensus uh and we're
basically rebuilding our code it was
initially uh built for a different
system than we've used it for stet the
next phase is coming out in q1 our
Target is towards the end of next year
to start uh having a a decentralized
operation of the network so basically
anybody wants to will be able to
sequence and prove so to prove star net
blocks and take part in this it's it's a
major effort but uh it's coming all
right it's coming let's keep watching
okay next one uh with so many altoos
it's too much fragmentation which one we
win what are the characteristic of the
winning and possibility of unifying okay
so a lot of what I said is around that
uh I don't think it's going to be a one-
winner take all uh I think there are a
bunch of use cases that do allow
different things and even prefer
different things so even the public
network versus app chain uh aspect that
I touched before in some cases people
will want to run app chains and not run
on the main chain so I don't think it's
going to be just one chain that rules
them all um I do think that validity
rups have uh some inherent uh benefits
over the other options so I think
they're M much better poised longer term
to to give scale and and better cost and
and better us next uh but there are lots
of them as well uh and and definitely
there's going to be some it's not just
unification it's going to be there's
going to be some uh like better
coordination or uh uh bridging or
aggregation between uh different layer
toos a lot of teams are working on it
right now it's still not working well
but I believe that will happen all right
and I encourage you all to stay for the
next session because we are about to
talking about this topic exactly all
right next one why Kyo not
rust why Cairo and not rust okay so
Cairo is very much like rust uh not that
many differences uh it is a smart
contract language so rust is wider in
its scope you could write a lot of
things in Rust that you can't really
prove because they use some other stuff
uh it's not very far from it uh we are
always considering whether we want to
support additional VMS and some like the
next one might be rust itself uh but
again if you like rust uh I don't think
you'll find CYO major difference how
hard is it if I know rust like how hard
is it to
it's pretty easy it's uh like for people
who come from rust typically Cairo is a
very natural example uh if they go to
Solana it's like rust but it's not
exactly rust either so it's it's similar
okay thanks all right next one I heard
State offer two seconds finality but eum
itself cannot finalize block that fast
what do you mean by okay so always in
Layer Two you have two levels of
finality you have Layer Two finality and
they're in layer one finality layer one
finality you only get once the proofs
reach ethereum and ethereum very
verifies it which is definitely lot more
than 10 than two seconds but you also
have earlier fin finality in Layer Two
right now Stark net is centralized so
this basically rides on a centralized
sequencer uh ensuring that transactions
have been included but once this is
decentralized there's going to be
consensus protocol in Layer Two and
you're going to get much quicker Layer
Two finality before layer one and that
could be in the order of magnitude of
two seconds probably even less all right
thank you okay next one uh let's talk
about Bitcoin eum that you mentioned
that you will post on the two chains uh
Wier board and yeah what if they okay so
I I wouldn't say Bitcoin is weaker than
ethereum I think in terms of security
it's probably actually stronger than
ethereum uh in terms of uh uh
programmability it offers a lot less
options than ethereum uh but it is
actually very secure and it is a very
strong Network there are lots of people
there and there's lots of of uh hardware
and capital actually securing that
network uh and today for the people on
Bitcoin they can't do that much with
their tokens because because of the pro
uh uh programmability issue that I just
mentioned so if you have Stark net r on
top of Bitcoin as well all of a sudden
you could take your Bitcoin move it to
to a layer two which is as secure as
Bitcoin and do stuff with it and have
Smart contracts that you could run uh
ethereum allows it today but for the
ethereum community so I think unifying
the two will have uh great benefits
definitely for the Bitcoin Community but
also for the ethereum community because
now you could run the same applications
and and Target both audiences