foreign
[Music]
like what happened before as this one is
basically just like a continuing session
to what happened in Osaka where we
thought that we will almost die after
typhoon
um so basically that was like proof of
work to prove of stakes or like
transition session uh where we hosted
like some Community sessions as well uh
alongside the Eid one in each One X to
E2 and these two sessions
um it was kind of successful in a huge
room where vitalik went on like a huge
session and brought like so many
research posts of like that inspired the
discussions that happen uh during the
session
um and then
um just to give you a quick overview of
the
um the roadmap of what we've been
discussing uh like just a few points uh
mainly we've been discussing the IP 1559
the fee Market change for ethereum uh
which was a very hot discussion and also
the prak Pao which we agreed uh uh that
sort of conspiracy driven AIP and we
should not keep much of a like we should
not like pay much of attention to that
as that's very conspiracy agreement
um then we also started discussing about
State rent
um as
we realized that many people are using
blockchain as a storage
um so we were discussing that there
should be uh rent free that there should
be some rent fee for the providers it
also kick off the ideas for stateless
Clan with Alex and Piper I'm not sure if
they are there but um they started
um pretty much discussing how we make
ethereum stateless and then they follow
up the session in Paris after ECC in
2020 which was the covet session as well
and then we were discussing Also
regarding uh like how ethereum can like
um how like hearts um like The Shard
design basically uh and then the ACM
transaction history archive which is
basically about how we can keep the full
state of all transactions and like
archive notes and all that
um
so
um you guys may be wondering why
everybody is sitting down even I'm like
sitting down because I don't want to be
like too much like oh I'm like important
and you guys are not uh but basically
three magician sessions are always like
everybody's sort of like on the same
um same like line or something that like
there is no such thing as like oh these
are the cardiffs or like oh these are
the speakers and they're important like
no like everybody is equal and everybody
is
um as important as whether you're a
speaker or you are sitting in the
audience uh and I highly encourage you
to join us anytime in this like how
Circle
um so if you have like something to say
to this session or like to the topic
that is being discussed feel free to
anytime uh switch like anybody just like
take their seat and be like hey like I
want to like say something to this uh
and even grab a mic
um and I also encourage you to take some
notes or some like ideas that you have
we also have a marker would just like
thank you so much who's gonna take a
note from this session and then also I
forgot your name uh but uh there is a
guy who is going to take a note in
Spanish so we are going to have a
translated notes uh from this session as
well uh and make sure to publish them on
ethereum magician's Farm
um and then I just figured out that this
would be a cool quote
um to my kick up this session to like
make ethereum more Diversified
um as I feel like we need more clients
um to be run in the ethereum ecosystem
and we should not be
um just focusing ourselves or on the
main two clients and by the way the QR
code weird until let the QR code be
there and that's where you can find the
slides and in the slides there are many
links that what I've been just
mentioning during my introduction speech
and that's pretty much it from my side
I'm just going to try to encourage you
all to
week up uh and like don't be scared even
the mic it doesn't bite you and it's
just like our friend and
um if you will try to if you want to
like speak up about something uh we want
you to like make sure that
um everybody will hear you basically and
that's pretty much it
um I'm excited for this I'm just giving
the words to Tim and let's kick off
sweet
um yeah thanks a lot for the intro
um yeah so I guess on the point of
people asking questions and contributing
I do not have near three hours of like
contents here right like so like you
know I have a couple questions to kick
things off but like this is very much on
you if uh you will have stuff you want
to discuss this is the place for it
um or we'll be out of here in 50 minutes
um but I guess yeah there's like three
things on the slides I think uh or needs
to discuss with the people here um first
is just like how the merge went it was a
pretty big piece of work
um not only technically but just like
making it happen from like a human
perspective we have all these teams
working together so
um yeah I'm personally curious to hear
just from the different client teams and
folks involved like how that whole
process went is there things we can do
better for like the next one
um or things we did well that we didn't
expect to do so well
um after that like we keep talking about
like The Surge Verge Purge Splurge all
that stuff
um I think I just want to make sure we
have space you know to hear from
different kind teams about like how they
see priorities there what they think is
important where things are generally at
and then answer all the questions from
you guys because I think it's uh easy to
like look at the four acronyms or like
meme names and then when you get it to
the details there's like many more open
questions so hopefully we could get into
some of those
um and then yeah we'll try and keep time
at the end
um or actually we will keep coming no
matter what at the end
um to just discuss like specific eip's
like there's a bunch of VIP Champions
shanghai's planning's been a bit
different because we we canceled the
calls after it emerges to give people a
break uh so everyone has like eaps that
they want to put in
um not other places to discuss them
right now so we'll use this as a sort of
pressure valve for some of those
discussions
um yeah
but again yeah please ask questions
throughout um otherwise this is going to
be over pretty quick
um but yeah to kick it off um I I just
was curious to hear from like different
folks on kite teams like their
perspective I'm like not like
technically how the merge went like I
think we've covered that a lot already
but just how they felt during the
process and like you know now that it's
over and and we have a bit more distance
like looking back how do you feel it
went and other things that could have
been better oh yeah
I made the mistake of sitting beside Tim
um
uh it was stressful it was really really
stressful and really drawn out for a
long time and I think as quarters we've
all felt that real pressure
um so that's that's kind of the personal
view of it I don't know how you change
that I'm not sure we should because we
should have been under pressure to ship
and we were
um but you know I guess I'd say never be
in doubt that core devs feel the
pressure to ship
um we really do uh
yeah I think there were a lot of really
good things we did the testing that we
we managed to do was phenomenal
um and it was a kind of another couple
of steps up on anything we've done
before for hard forks and that kind of
coordination and and work that went into
that was absolutely fantastic
um
starting with the client teams testing
their releases but then the EF support
was spinning up the shadow test Nets
were a brilliant idea
um and uh Mario and and other people
contributing to the
um test Suites uh And Hive tests and
that kind of thing really really
valuable I don't think we started those
Hive tests in particular early enough
um and I think that probably is a
knock-on effect and we didn't
necessarily include the execution
clients early enough uh which might have
been because they were busy with you
know 1559 or something giant
um so I'm not sure what the timelines
there exactly were but it it felt like
consensus side almost felt confident and
ready and execution was kind of like oh
yeah emerge the merge is the next thing
we've got time now we can look and it
wasn't wasn't a surprise to them don't
don't get me wrong but I think that was
a big deal that that would have helped
to bring that forward and then have more
time on things like being able to pay
real attention to the hive test we were
struggling as client developers to keep
up with the sport and the last minute
things we knew about and dealing with
these Hive test reports that are in a
format that particularly for the cancer
consensus side we weren't particularly
familiar with
thank you made a mistake of sitting too
close to age
um yeah I I agree it was really
stressful very very stressful four years
um I think a large part of it was
figuring out how to deal with that and
how to keep performing and keep
delivering good code uh not sure what to
do about that
um perhaps having gone through it once
then these group of clients will be
better at doing it again
um I think it was interesting to see how
they were kind of um like a few little
efforts or a few people that kind of
poked up and really pushed things along
um I think Parry was really helpful
um uh I think uh Marius also managed to
create a lot of momentum so I think
there's a lot to be said about
um yeah just I think the right person at
the right time relieving the right
pressure point so
I don't know what we can do to to make
that happen more in the future but those
yeah those individuals should be enabled
when they want to when they want to do
something
um I think it went really well
um I have been quite disappointed with
Mev since
um since it's launched I know there's
been with some of the implementations
there there's been some bugs that we
that with like Json encoding that really
really shouldn't have hit us on mainnet
um
I think it's probably because Mev
um like we all kind of realize that
that's a thing is happening quite close
to the merge didn't quite get enough
time to run with it didn't get enough
time for it to be integrated into our
setups
um
I think there's also some catching up
that those teams need to do in terms of
um announcements and cons so if they
have failures
um with their software they need to
announce it they need to tell people
instantly that there is a problem and
it's being looked into not sit on it for
some time and then and then and then
publish it do I was really happy to
actually we we almost launched in
October so just the next year
um
so but then I came back to the like
after I said that I was like yeah maybe
maybe it was not really the common
agreement the common sense and I came
back today to the Netherlands team
asking everyone hey do you think I can
do that for October like you think it's
possible at least do I have to go and
just like tell everyone hey I was wrong
and they said no we think it's possible
so I thought okay yeah and well there
was there was a lot of work but at the
same time I remember thinking on the
same day I think it was good to say it
because suddenly all the infrastructure
teams started calling everyone and
saying hey like we're launching in
October we are totally unprepared we
have to start preparing and it was
needed like because we needed node
operators to start looking at this we
needed a community to say okay there's
some date for the first time uh so I
miss it by a lot but and then in Emporia
yes I was still still very confident
because I I've seen the things
progressing I've seen the the Ryan is
hitting very fast but it was like all
those small things that take so much
much time really in the testing and the
proper testing and the confidence
and I think when I was a bit pessimistic
was around April this year when I
when we were thinking about Mev boost
and how ready a movie boost is and how
much everybody was prepared for Mev
burst and it was more stressed at the
time about will we have a movie burst on
time or will we have to launch without
any Rebus because at the time we were
thinking of June or May as a launch date
for a movie a for for the merge so
everything came together around
September I definitely didn't want
people to
does it say to use this difficulty bomb
thing as a as something that would drive
the dates uh talking to developers to
our team I feel like there's really no
more motivation you can get or no more
pushing or or shouting or asking that
you could get for delivery on time so
there's absolutely no sense to introduce
any other stressor so so the difficulty
bombing moved slightly uh I hoped it
won't move the merge date and we didn't
so actually the merge it wasn't moved
and nobody was talking about the block
times but we would talk about the block
times if it didn't happens
nice
um yeah we're focus on another side of
the room
we are like one of the minor clients uh
bezel team and
um one thing I would have done
differently was
um preparing for people choosing client
diversity uh getting ready for them
didn't realize I guess I think it was
around like two three weeks before the
merge timeline we saw a huge amount of
people thanks to a lot of solo stickers
coming through Discord asking tons of
questions and I think the maintainers
were super busy with uh you know trying
to get the final release out uh didn't
get to really respond to a lot of them
so I think that's something that if we
had to go through the merge not really
um but if we had to go through it again
that we would do that differently to be
ready for Community Support how do we
get this uh new users coming through
this ecosystem like how can we support
that better
um and but honestly it's definitely a
hard challenge because as maintainers
like you're really deep in the weeds of
like really trying to get the code out
on top of that trying to support tons of
users coming through is uh it's it's
really challenging but thanks to a lot
of the contributors who also chimed in
and asked answering a lot of other
people's questions on how to set up
their validators and all that um so yeah
it's definitely a community effort it's
not just the maintainers all core devs
so thank you for those uh solo stickers
coming in and asking questions and
really improving the client diversity
and also other contributors supporting
each other so yeah thank you for that
um I guess one less common is please
don't threat threaten us
minority clients by saying oh we're
gonna go together I think that's like a
step in your like heart and twisting it
so yeah thank you
hello okay so I wanna double down on
Paul so I'm from prison and um so from
my team's perspective merge has always
just been consensus execution and engine
API and boom done right and then like I
guess like just a month before the merch
we learned okay there's this Mev stuff
we have to work out now and then there's
this Mev booths and there's this relayer
this Builder so we just keep adding more
and more actors to the picture and then
even a few weeks before the merge right
there there was this tornado or cash
they say all fetch stuff and then
flashbots would only relayer so our team
had this big internal discussion it's
okay should we drop the support right
now like like what should we do if
flashbart was the only relayer and they
are sensory transaction right even
though and maybe boost is a neutral
piece of software above flash about is
the only relayer then as a client team
we are indirectly supporting censorship
and of course I'm not happy with that
this this is now why we're here for
right so I think like we've learned a
lot I learned a lot it's just like if
today relays are producing 50 of the
blocks on the main net are they
considered as layer one right and I'm
I'm I'm really happy to see this more
and more like relayers flash balls
they're joining the Oracle Depot they're
starting to participate more on just
layer one roadmap like architecture and
stuff like that so I do think like we do
have to work with them and they have to
work with us together to basically push
the space forward
okay
yeah good points by um by Terrence I
think it's worth saying as well that I
think even though we did have some
problems with Mev and I was pretty harsh
on them before I think we did come out
of it um in a better spot than we were
before uh there's no like Mev guests now
um and Flash Sports we're really happy
to to relinquish that that control which
was really cool
um an mbb boost
um is something that can be implemented
by other people
um and even as it stands it works with
other relays um so I think we really
opened up the world to Mev and although
we didn't solve it and we're still not
in a great spot I think we ended up in a
better spot um and I think flashbots
have done some good stuff um towards
that as well
yeah the circuit breaker's good as well
yeah so now there's um the consensus
clients can detect when the chain is
unhealthy and then just disable Mev
um so that's something that we couldn't
really do before in Mev Geth
um with the like Mev boot flash plus
could have implemented it but
um you know it's a lot of work for them
um so yeah now there's a lot more
control from the consensus clients at
least um into what's going on with Mev
and I think that's that's a really good
place to be in
do they still run nav Geth if you did
the theory layers
I don't know actually it's a good
question I kind of um wasn't thinking
about that but yeah because I think like
you know for the most part most people
who are running validators they're just
getting blocks from the either the
Builder the relay somebody has to run
something that looks like Geth that's
taking the Searcher bundles together and
putting them into a block format yeah I
guess what's up if that that's still the
case it's not it's not ideal but I guess
what's better now is that every one of
those gets produced is now verified by
um not that thing before it's published
on the network right
yeah and I guess like from my
perspective the the whole situation with
Mev was very interesting because Mev has
been around for several years now and
you know we've kind of seen through the
defy Summer and the nft summer these
crazy numbers about how much Mev there
is in blocks and you know for my
perspective was I was thinking you know
there's so much money in this industry
like the solutions are just going to
appear and they're going to be really
robust and they're going to work
and then you know it turns out that it's
six seven months before we were really
projecting for the merch to happen we're
starting to realize that the solutions
that we as core developers feel need to
exist weren't in the place that we felt
that they needed to be and so we started
trying to like help help accelerate
um that path
and the way that it turned out I think
like it's better than it could have been
I would have been very curious to see
like what in you know institutions would
have created their own Mev boost had
this like open source public thing not
existed because I think that there is
enough money in this industry that some
of these big stickers would have
realized you know there's no way for us
to extract the movie anymore let's
create some centralized endpoint for
people to send bundles to and we'll just
extract it for our customers and you
know Screw all the rest of the stakers
they can figure out their own ways so
it's not where we want it to be today we
want to improve boost and make it better
and we eventually want to move to PBS
where it's part of the protocol uh and
so we're just working towards that but
and I think like also you know with
respect to thinking that the Mev
industry was going to build all this
stuff the core development Community is
also like a very anti-finalization of a
lot of things and so to a degree it felt
like we didn't want to think about it it
felt wrong for us to think about Mev in
a lot of cases
and it was only later on where we
realized how much interplay there was
between censorship and Mev and the
ability to produce blocks and it started
to just unfold very naturally over the
last six to eight months and I think
like looking back if we would have
understood those things two years ago we
probably would have thought a lot harder
about how to think about this with
respect to the merge and maybe how to
integrate some of this stuff a little
bit more natively uh into clients
yeah and I guess um
yes talking about like the design of the
whole thing I'm curious to hear like
Proto Macau you both spend a bunch of
time like early on with like the engine
API and and specking out of that but
um yeah Miguel do you want to just like
walk us through like
how do we come up with the merge like
how do we how do we get here
yeah hey ah okay so sorry like for me
the merge started
two and a half years ago like roughly at
this moment in time and uh yeah by that
time it was like an idea of the two-way
Bridge of bringing the um Casper F of G
as a frame analysis Gadget from the
beacon chain to the um the proof work
chain
um that was the Australian point and
there was an idea of like actually
um
uh transition in the proof of work chain
eventually to the one of the shards that
was not yet designed by that time and uh
yeah it was like a long journey I can't
recall everything that has happened uh
like during this more than two years
period of time but one thing that I
would just like to mention here like my
key takeaway one of the key takeaways
from the working on the merge project is
that retrospectively
um what what I can um yeah recall like
the first collaboration with other some
somebody else working on the same space
was uh collaborating with Guillaume
guillaum prototype did basically the
first execution layer client was not
called that by that time but anyway it
like made me much easier to like
prototype the whole thing like the
consensus interact with the execution
layer it was not done by engine API by
that time but anyway it was like yeah
the old idea of like putting it in a
chart and make it work somehow so we did
this prototype then yeah after some
progress on the merge specs and the
ideas then protopied with like rheanism
project so just you know forced us to
make the first version of engine API for
the do you remember all this enormous
amount of hours you've spent the
managing this project and driving it
through it's like I mean I can talk
about that I would want to First
reiterate over the first moment in time
most that we developed the merge
I think it was
um before coffee before the whole
pandemic I think in like SBC there were
still discussions about ewasum but then
less than a month later in Paris during
Evon X
discussions afterwards
eosm or like the ID of execution starts
was basically over and don't forget and
these discussions between you and
Guillaume Danny me others Brandon also
started where hey maybe we can prototype
the Catalyst thing with the evm applied
to techu
and uh yeah like
that's kind of cool but I took that's
two thousand twenty it took a year more
than a year till we got to to rayonism
so it's a huge leap already where things
happened
and then in realism where in this
awkward spots where alter was still not
shipped and London was still not chapped
and we were just like moment in time
where there's this stack development
where you have to convince people
that they need to dedicate resources on
something that's not the main hard work
to make some kind of progress
definitely like there there were moments
in time where I was slightly like
yeah out of my humor because of the the
way the the these calls would go like
for a month we were thinking of it like
a hackathon where okay we just do the
Prototype with more than one client
and Martin often it's just meant that
some clients would not go and join these
cars to even just get a glimpse of what
we were trying to do after alter and
after London and I think like this
disco-free process for future Forks we
can improve where
that's the time and if we had more
people
think about the merge we could have
realized that hey we need to make these
communication Channels with things like
flashbots and MFE
verages very soon
all the rest it's very late then you've
got the new situations
yeah and by the way and maybe people are
going to join us for the last session so
we can discuss more that later because
Alex he just text me that he's coming
for the last session unfortunately he
did not make it here
can I continue on that yeah it's just a
few few sentences left from my end okay
so after any this is the first time we
had like engaged more client developers
and client development teams into that
we had to written to write us back of
the engine API like to make this you
know some kind of standardized or
whatever it was even before Emperor it
was like uh like more than one year ago
like yeah
yeah April and May what do you mean one
yeah it was great so then Emperor then
uh yeah all this of chain events uh off
chains sorry of sites of of offline
events it's a really huge
um facility of the progress and all the
um developers in one place talking to
each other in person I think it's really
helps to collaborate on the things even
after the event and when we were like on
the internet
um back to work
yeah and
as has been mentioned tests and efforts
client developers
gave a lot of feedback and all this
stuff I was just and the key takeaway uh
for from from what has been said
um yeah the right people at the right
moment in time
make the things happen so
retrospectively this is what has
happened with the merge
um and I think that uh this may only
happen uh this kind of like thing right
people at the right moment in time
appear like in a healthy Community which
we have currently the healthy community
of researchers and developers and uh
yeah and this like
uh prove the merge is like as for me is
proof of like these
um that the this community of research
and developers that we have in ethereum
ecosystem can like capable of delivering
like huge big sophisticated projects and
like the merge is like the first one
right so next is
uh dank charging and other things uh
local trees so it's not that I'm not
that scared about it after we deliver
the merge with this huge success so
thank you very much everyone
who made it
I guess on the note of the community
it's been like 35 minutes that's just us
talking
um Team don't want to give a lot star
um to like tell us more but after that
start asking questions so we can like
open this up hey thank you sorry for
being late
as we are most of the time uh we're we
are the fifth the fifth uh consensus
client so yeah we we actually produced
our first block on mainnet in November
of last year but it was actually fun to
basically Sprint up to uh to with
everyone else and basically caught up
um so that sort of retrospective was uh
was amazing to see the kind of feat that
we can get there and of course with the
help of all the other client teams
um as well we were able to pull through
so basically goes to show that what
we're capable of when we all work
together especially when we're all
focused on that one thing and it was to
achieve a successful merge so
um it was really great to for all you
guys to help us basically pull us up to
where you guys are
um I guess one of the hardest things
that we had to deal with with being a
more later client uh to be ready for
mainnet is really just the fact that
client stickiness is really really huge
issue and we definitely noticed it as
we're going towards merch people
tended to not necessarily want to
experiment with a new client going up to
something as critical as the merge so we
found that to be quite difficult even
though we you know tried our best to
sort of make it easier for people you
know like one of the best examples would
have been our lodestar quick scripts
that we use which is basically like a
one-line command for people to start up
load star with any of the El clients
um but you know didn't see as much
traction with as we'd like to but
um now that we're pretty much caught up
going into withdrawals Shanghai
dangsharding hoping to see much more
adoption with that and um yeah we
definitely can't do it without the help
of all of our Collective Minds together
so really our retrospective is um if you
are an up-and-coming client
um we're all here to help you
nice
yeah
so we we've just shared kind of mostly
core devs and researchers you know our
retrospectors on the merge so my
question to everyone out in the
community is what's it been like like
what's your retrospective on how the
merge has gone how's it been as a
validator how's it been as a dab
developer and those kinds of things
someone's got to start just give someone
a mic yeah
[Music]
hi I'm not there
it was crazy because in Mexico I'm
trying to teach people what this video
needs to make in while people like you
are building are creating
I need scar record all the terminology
is very hard to understand and that they
don't teach people what you are doing
and guys like me that are nerds ready
and all the stuff
it's very hard to to keep a good Channel
so I think
it's
day to day it's improving life for
example when I start to make the threats
about all quartets in Spanish
Skylar came to me and said a guy a nice
what you are what you are doing they and
team Baker start to to share my post so
thank you to everyone for all this
I don't know I feel like very nervous
because I think that I am with a very
very smart guys people and it's like
crazy but
that day that night where I was with the
East Latin Community speaking about the
marriage what he's going to do
everybody was very very hyped then we
saw the panda and was okay it's done
let's go to sleep
so great job guys great job
and I think
thank you to everyone who's doing those
translations and helping with that
education
we can't keep up with all of it and it
is a community effort it's it's really
brilliant uh this might be like a random
question but can we have more
documentation resources for future core
developers
um because I've looked around and it's
very hard to find and I myself would
like to volunteer to take that task and
would love to create a documentation of
tutorials and road maps because I really
want to work on that but it's very hard
to find like a clear path to become a
core developer okay this is a great time
to give a shout out because Mario just
came and he is actually one of the
people who leads the fellowship program
for cardiffs
um like um
thank you
um have you heard about a protocol
Fellowship uh it's exactly answer to
your question oh you were I'm sorry
about that but you can still participate
so this is the thing so like um so uh if
you didn't protocol Fellowship is a kind
of an internship program where
um uh anybody can come and work start
working on a project and in a way that
we it provides
um certain mentorship from many of folks
who are sitting here and other core devs
and there are also resources so if uh
with the uh the whole uh later
Fellowship is coordinated via repository
on GitHub where there is also suggested
reading uh there are a few things they
put together but I agree it's not easy
that's it's a high wall that you have to
go through but so we are I believe that
this might make it easier so there is uh
there is a lot of things to dive into
and uh the the reading in the repo can
help you to look into what what uh makes
you uh what you're interested in and
then uh you can just start contributing
because so the the calls and everything
in the even if you were accepted it's
still open you can join uh if you are
not accepted you just don't get a
stipend uh but you can still come and
and if you work on a project and over a
few weeks we see that you have valuable
out output uh we can still uh give you
this type and as well uh but it's fully
a permissionless you can come to the
calls propose idea that you want there
there are calls where you can propose
idea in an issue similar to ACD uh that
I would like to discuss this and uh
we'll invite some of the mentors to help
you with that give you some guidance so
yeah hopefully it can help and if not
that
well and uh we have like one of our
projects is also card development as
well where we we are very happy to guide
you over as well
um yeah we are always hiring new interns
so
I don't know yeah so this is like sort
of like should be your base layer for
where to find more cardiffs related or
like how to be according
um although that was kind of
controversial where um I think lane or I
mean
yeah I mean it was like oh he's a cardos
can I be a quarterback
um yeah who else
ever be a hackathon for this sort of
thing uh maybe like a three-day thing
event where people can work on funny
stuff
we should do that because Kristoff
wanted to do one in like never mind
hackathon uh but it was like it was
supposed to be internal but I'm very
happy to take this over and
um do sort of like a chord of uh
hackathon and I mean Mario should
definitely collaborate on that
Thomas is okay with that because he's
like my boss right now because I'm
leading the internship program so
just quickly I was going to say
um it's a lot of the open source repos
also have tickets that are marked good
to start development on so that's
another Avenue it does get taken up by
contributors and we review and give
feedback and help and
so there are a few averages but it is a
big it's a learning curve
um so we were working this weekend on
the eth Bogota on some hypothesis
regarding the new proof of approval
stake system and one question we written
couldn't get answered was now with the
new approval stake system is how the Box
the blocks get built is it still purely
an economical incentive as where they
choose the highest fees for the or the
highest prices to include in the blocks
or are there other incentives include
included as there's an increased risk of
slashing
so they the blog building doesn't really
lead to the slash increase slash
increases are only
related to the double signing like
signing two different blocks or
attaching to two different blocks of
proposing to conflicting blocks or
attesting to conflicting blocks so they
yeah it's it should be economical
incentive it should be
a line incentive something that is very
natural so the blood Builder is looking
for the payout and
collects the transactions that are
paying the most uh plus there might be
any
not clearly economical not Financial but
still quantifiable benefits
right so Thomas is right about slashing
there are inactivity penalties which are
often confused with slashings which you
can incur if you miss your proposal and
for example if that latency is very high
because they're using an external block
Builder surface
um so that's one
incentive for people to use lower
latency Services it should just be your
or not
but I do think that's
part of the whole MEP discussion and how
we make homesteakers as competitive with
regular stakers when it comes to
publishing blocks so that they get
adjusted timely and they're not missed
and larger blocks obviously and they
they are they cost more expensive they
cost more time to propagate so that
might play a role
thank you
I just wanted this
I was just going to circle back very
quickly to the question about how to be
a core developer and I wanted to say
that there's I think there's two things
to consider the first is just follow all
core devs the best of your ability I
think orienting oneself around like
what's actually happening in the
protocol starts to make it a lot clearer
like where are places that you can
contribute to so doing that and then I
haven't talked to a core developer in a
long time who doesn't have a long
laundry list of things that they would
love to happen that they just simply
don't have enough hours in the day to do
so maybe once you're feeling more
oriented with the direction of the
protocol to try and just reach out to a
core developer and say hey
you know this is my skill set this is
where I'm coming from you know do you
have a project in mind that I might be
able to help with and I think like once
you start doing a little bit of that and
showing that there's like you're
creating value then core teams love
hiring people so this is uh this is what
I would recommend all the tiny note on
that about like following your devs
um as the guy who runs it the first like
six months or so it was my job to attend
all core devs I just like didn't
understand anything that was happening
and like it was literally like too
intimidated to like speak up so like if
that's your feeling
um that's normal and if you're smarter
than me it'll probably not last six
months but like it there's a lot of just
like implied context that I don't know
it's really hard and I felt really good
about myself when Danny Ryan told me the
same thing when he started I think
before he started the EF he would attend
the Casper CBC calls and he would just
share links in the zoom chat he was
telling me like you know when somebody
was like oh like this paper came out he
would just like Google it to be the
first guy to share the link in Zoom chat
so like yeah the calls are like
hard to it's not like a good way to dive
into it I haven't found somebody
um so if you're like if it feels weird
for a while uh that's that's kind of
normal
um
I have I when people ask me any
questions I always throw in these at
random ideas I think this is a good idea
just be extremely obsessed with like eat
Research Forum and to a point where that
you read The Forum one two three times
and then take notes to like like
basically where the notes that you can
understand then you can transfer notes
into blog posts and then you can share
the blog post to people and then but but
when you're able to do that you you like
you can actually be fairly you can't
actually be very knowledgeable at that
topic already which yeah and then other
things like just just podcasts in
general like just like pay attention to
like quartet podcast and then take notes
on that and then also share your notes
because people will actually appreciate
that because not because not a lot of
people have come to watch like YouTube
videos and listen to podcasts and stuff
people will prefer to read notes
and just make sure to share everything
on Twitter that's where that's where the
hype is and that's like how you can get
involved and go to events and just like
speak up or even take notes and then
like even DM to people that's like how
you can basically get started also great
way how to get even closer to the people
in the ethereum it's just volunteer on a
conference that's basically how many
people in the ecosystem including me
started and I feel like that's the way
how you can get even closer and whether
that's like volunteering on the
conference itself or you can just even
volunteer on a calls and you can like
find like a client calls and then just
like hey like I want to take a note or
like this is my skill set and like this
is how I want to help you or like I
found a Bunty uh like I found a bug in
your code or something or just like get
involved with the GitHub repos
yeah I'd 100 agree hi I'm Christine um
I'm a researcher at Galaxy but on the
topic of Youth core Dev calls I too
definitely did not understand anything
for like the first couple years of my
time covering these calls but it takes a
while
um I think one thing that I thought was
really interesting about covering the
merge and being on these like watching
through live stream over the years that
it took to kind of like get the merge
going is how over time
like the process for figuring out what
goes into the merge and who gets to
build clients for the merge increasingly
become like a smaller and smaller and
smaller team
um so like in the beginning there was
like probably there was like there's
this article on coindesk talking about
like how there's like eight or nine
different client teams like trying to
build for the merge but a lot of them
dropped off once like I think there was
a point in which like the the repo for
how ethereum's consensus was going to
happen got like to totally overturned
and that made a lot of playing teams mad
and so then it like shranked down to
four and I think the closer like the
client teams got to to the merge
it was very it was very clear that like
there there wasn't like really much more
discussion to be had from like just
anybody so like when the Discord channel
was like privatized like basically like
no one talked because we really have to
focus on the merge right now and when
they started to become like differences
of like client teams Readiness for the
merge so like some Clan teams were more
ready than others had more features
ready than others I think they're the
differences between like preparation and
resources for each client teams got a
lot clearer like the closer it came to
the merge
um so I think like moving forward and
looking ahead to some of the other
bigger upgrades
um I guess like I wanted to know your
guys's thoughts on
how to like
on basically what the new process is
going to be for eips and stuff because
like for the eth core Dev calls for the
last couple months it's been clear that
it's just the merge but now like there's
going to be so much to discuss so much
about ethereum's roadmap
um
so I thought that it was like really
like part of the the whole topic around
like ossification like the more
decentralized this process is the harder
it is to make changes
um but clearly there's like some amount
of centralization that's needed and that
we've already seen to make the merge
possible and so now there's Shanghai
coming up so like will it still be like
consensus layer execution layer like
calls or how are we thinking about
governance I guess moving forward to to
to start to like
um yeah pull off some of the other big
big road map items
wow there's a lot to unpack in there
um I think High short really short
answer is like slowly iterating from
what we have like I think just like the
merge itself was kind of a feat of
governance to some extent to get like
mine kind teams to work together
um and agree on like uh like agreeing on
the big stuff was easy for the merch I
think everybody wanted to do it
um
like all the tiny things I don't know I
have latest valid hash like burnt into
my head from typing in the El Cortez
agenda um like it's just like this
thousand tiny things where it's like the
coordinations was really hard
um I think the other thing is like and
and we're about to get into seconds it's
like balancing like large protocol
changes so something like the merge
something like sharding something like
stateless with like smaller things that
like bring it out of value as well I I
think this is where most of the tension
probably arises like different
prioritizations there I think so I'm
curious to hear from Dan crowd then
crowd you have like some like more
radical views about the process than me
so yeah and you haven't spoken so far so
I think it's a good it's a good cue for
you
um
I mean that's a big jump but yeah um
um I mean my view on all core devs I
mean like I mean uh I think the big
thing that I I feel is missing and that
I want to see is
um representation of like ethereum's
users and the whole Community rather
than it mostly being focused around one
side of the of the um of ethereum which
is the development
um and I think that's uh that's a big
thing and we would see very interesting
and different proposals if we had more
voices like that on the call also the
app process is being like it's being
improved over time and right now what
like not like we but the ipip group is
working on and uh alongside with uh
ethereum cat holders uh it's pretty much
that they are going to like sort of fork
or like separate the core eyepiece from
the other year season like are different
aips and then eventually
yeah but like I remember like we've been
talking with like team and some other
even like Hudson I think you were there
in the group where we wanted to separate
e uh erc's from the eaps
um
oh Jesus I mean also happen we we did
not use the
stage because we went to like be
everybody on the same
[Laughter]
okay
thank you
um
so pretty much we wanted to separate
erc's from uh eaps but then it ended up
what ended up happening is that we ended
up sort of separating core IPS from the
rest of the eaps that's exactly right
and um there's been there's been years
and years of debate over whether to
separate eips from erc's and a lot of it
the biggest problem I'm finding looking
back is that there wasn't a steward to
be an ERC editor I mean there are also
EIP editors already but there are like
two or three people at this point and
Micah doesn't want to do erc's anymore
like he's been open about that I mean
yeah there was like many people that
wanted to sort of do it I was even like
one of the people that wanted to like do
it myself on behalf of magicians but
then like it kind of fizzled yeah there
was there was like miscommunication
there was like a lot of different
problems but either way I'm glad that
it's getting separated now that's gonna
make things less confusing when people
talk about eips and especially is POS uh
because back in like I think we had this
discussion and uh like with Mario's
right at the Amsterdam where we started
talking about how the EI process will
gonna look like and that was like April
this year
um and only basically pretty much got as
answer was that it will be consensus
driven so not not AIP process as we are
used to right now which is by the way
described in the IAP one which you guys
can find on uh eip.etherium.org
um yeah can I say one more quick thing
on the eip's I I guess it's like worth
separating like the tools from the
process like sure you know like we can
split out the RCs and I'm very bullish
on my executable specs for for the
Executioner like there's a bunch of like
mechanical changes we can do to the
process and I think they'll be better
but that's different from like how do we
actually come to consensus on the thing
like whether it's an EIP or the yellow
paper like a consensus spec PR
um you know that's like a marginal
difference I think that
so one thing I actually really don't
like about Cortez is that it's calls
um like my like and the reason for that
is like
um calls are hard because for they
optimize for a bunch of weird things so
like the optimize for people who are
awake at the time who are like uh good
English speakers who like are very like
eloquent and like can like think on
their feet and and like respond live
during the call
um I think this and also they're like
not very scalable we can't have like 90
people on a call um and so like to your
point about like having more more of
like the community involved it's like
that's something where like moving the
calls are good because they give like a
forcing function and like some rhythms
like I wouldn't take them away
completely but moving to be like more
async is something I've like I try to
think a lot about and you know so for
Shanghai we have like this uh tag on on
these magicians and like you know anyone
can tag their eat there Klein devs can
review it like I can't force Klein devs
to like look at your VIP if they don't
want to like you know no one can do that
but it's like at least there's a list
and they can scroll through it and like
if it sounds good to them it might be
like more accessible and maybe you wrote
it you know at 9am Vietnam time rather
than like 4 a.m during yakodev awkward
devs so yeah I think more async is like
one actual tick like thing we can do to
make the process more open
um yeah
into it you don't have to like okay okay
what what's the next topic Serge Verge
Verge all the big stuff so so so so now
that we've talked about how we are going
to uh to come to consensus on these new
upgrades and new things we could maybe
talk about the new upgrades and new
things what's your favorite new upgrade
it's enough segue for you yeah sure
hilarious what's your favorite new
upgrade
um
um that that's that's pretty nice
I'm okay maybe okay a better question on
like the new upgrades
um I guess I'm curious like Yeah from
from client team's perspective like how
much have you been thinking about new
upgrades because like everyone on
Twitter obviously talks about 4844 a
bunch of people not in fine teams have
been contributing a couple incline teams
have as well but like you know mostly
like we shipped the merge a month ago
um you know like it's not a lot of time
um so yeah how are y'all thinking about
like what's next or are you trying to
not think about it as much as possible
and you know decompress with emerge yeah
so I
I kind of think our main responsibility
is our users right now and uh so uh
we have a bunch of upgrades coming up
that oh yeah okay hi
um
uh we have a we have a
so forget at least from my perspective
forget it's the most important thing is
the current Network
and it's not the it's not the future and
it's not uh this it wasn't the merge and
um
we want to make sure that the current
network runs and the current network
doesn't go down and it's secure and it's
usable and it's uh decentralized and you
can run your own node
um
so uh we have a bunch of uh other things
coming up to improve uh things about
around the database in gath the the
state the way we store the state and
um so yeah I'm really excited about
those and because we've been focusing
kind of focusing on those we haven't
focused too much on the upcoming eaps
um
okay okay like in general the team uh I
I personally also like I I started
implementing 4844 in Lighthouse
wrong client uh but uh it was it was a
learning experience and I I also worked
a bit on the Casey Jesus ceremony
because that was just interesting to me
um
we I think get this in a fortunate
position that we have a lot of outside
contributions uh so people actually if
they if they propose an EIP they usually
implement it in Geth and so when when
like the time rolls around and we
have to uh uh have the implementations
for the eaps we have something to build
on and
um we're in a very good position there
compared to other client teams and so we
can kind of focus a bit more on
testing making sure that the spec is
correct all of these things
I I think I drifted
very far from the question yeah cool
um how we feel about upgrades
um I think we're generally Keen I think
uh definitely Keen for withdrawals which
uh Mark is working on
um I I kind of feel like the merge is
not really finished until we have them
in we kind of have a bit of an
outstanding promise that we're yet to
fulfill to the stakers
um so definitely Keen to get that one in
um without even saying like
you know what do you want to do after
the merge because it's not really after
the merge for me until we've done that
um yeah so Keen to work on that Keen to
get that in soon definitely Keen to get
4844 and I think that looks really cool
um personally not super Keen to rush it
I think it'd be nice to have a bit of
time like Maris was saying to kind of
watch the network
um breathe
um yeah so definitely Keen for upgrades
sorry
yeah yeah that's right
um yeah we we have um like Sean's been
working on it um Maris has been working
on it for Lighthouse
um yeah you're gonna put in your time
sheet man
um yeah so we're keen I'll uh pass it to
the techu
yeah I think
I really support Paul's point on the the
next thing we do is withdrawals like
it's got to be done I I don't think it's
reasonable to put in bigger things that
are then going to delay getting
withdrawals out we made a promise we
shirked on the promise a bit and you
were all very forgiving because we got
the merge sooner and now we're going to
deliver the promise we've got to come
through on that
um but I think the thing that really
comes after the merge is the use of
support for the merge and the
optimization and the cleanup and the
learning now that we're actually seeing
it in the real world for real there's a
whole heap of stuff that we can now go
oh we should make this better and it's
not going to be protocol upgrades it's
just client Improvement and so on so
that's going to take a good chunk of
time but I think we can
um start looking at a bunch of other
things as well and so I think 4844 is
probably getting the The Lion's Share of
attention of the next big thing after
withdrawals
yeah I think that withdrawals are
absolutely must and absolutely the most
important thing to deliver at the same
time 4844 sounds so interesting that it
starts distill the Thunder and and I
think this may be even it's it's a bit
dangerous we should
very brave man sitting between photos
yeah exactly uh so so yeah that's that's
why it's so interesting because there's
people are so convincing in delivering
those Visions uh
yeah I think that's uh coming back to
her Netherlands team thinks about the
next delivery I almost would like to to
activate Daniel here to tell about his
like plan of of delivering them
so I think it's uh in our case very
similar what I just heard from other
teams so you right now I would like to
relax a little bit and focus on
improving our client yeah so the
marriage was extremely stressful to be
honest for the whole team
and now people want to do things that
you know you know let's say slower a
slower Pace yeah and additionally we
would like to clean up a little bit Yeah
because there was no time
um I know I don't know if you are aware
but like never mind a few months ago it
was completely different uh Team it was
undersized very small at some point
there was only one guy Marek working on
the merge which was crazy and you know I
was really sorry when I joined and I you
know uh met my recognized okay we have
to do something with that and yeah now
it's we are in a completely different
State uh we can you know improve our
client a lot we have a lot of things
that actually we are excited about and
they are not enough I would say
one-to-one related to to Shanghai these
are the things like human yeah like
database Improvement our sync
Improvement you know our robustness of
the clients these are the things that
maybe are not so excited exciting for
the community but they're exciting for
us and that's we are mostly are talking
about right now and there are also
things like you know documentation uh
Community Support user support these are
things that didn't work well in the past
and I think in general it should be
improved not only in nethermine but in
the whole Community yeah so this is what
actually excites us right now and in
terms of particular eips we already
started you know investigations but you
know taking it slowly you know have fun
with it like four eight four four is you
know there is one guy working from our
team that's I see that he's really
excited about it that's cool there is we
already started with travels we have
some kind of draft implementation and we
know that maybe it's gonna change but
yeah why not to start playing with it so
yeah in general yeah we are in much
better State than we used to be and yeah
this is what we are doing right now
so uh
yeah I can give you uh an additional
perspective from Minority client like
lodestar we're pretty much in the same
boat I guess with like nethermind where
before like at a point where we haven't
even hired the people that you guys have
at this point so in terms of time we
really haven't had as much time to
really think too too far ahead we're
getting most of the stuff from you know
you guys in in the community and such
but uh technical debt is definitely a
huge thing for us as well we have a lot
of documentation we need to update stuff
like this which um you know it would be
nice to have a Sprint that's just you
know for technical debt and and and
getting our client up uh to to par in
that sense
um but that's you know we're really
excited of course to implement all the
upcoming stuff
um in the roadmap
um like this was great for me because I
haven't even specked up 48 44 as much as
I should yet so that's you know
where we're at basically
so on the Nimbus side there is a
delicate balance between implementing a
new thing that are still moving targets
and doing things that are expecting from
client teams like testing and trying not
to introduce regressions uh like we had
a lot of
um
Point release in the past three weeks
before the match and that took like all
of our Focus but we do like
um implementing new things as well for
example we took the lead with load star
on the light client thing so this is
something that we will continue but we
didn't start at all on anything related
to the search The Verge The Purge
endless Branch well we did try to look
into kcg commitment but they changed a
lot in the past two years so everything
has to be thrown out and recorded
um I I also think it's fine for uh these
smaller clients to not be on the like
brink of research
um because the
especially with these uh with these
upgrades like like 4844 right now the
spec will change uh a lot and uh it I
think it just doesn't make sense for for
smaller client teams
um that have that need to focus on like
getting their client up to speed
um to also uh think about the research
and and the iteration on the spec so I
think that's something that we did with
uh with the merge pretty pretty well is
there was like the bigger client teams
uh gas Lighthouse prism
um
uh never mind be so iterating on the
iterating on the spec and the the other
client's
um kind of uh like like like following a
bit and um I think that's a good way for
the teams that have more funding more
people
um to take some of the load away from
the other teams and also that's also
what we're trying with uh with uh
testing uh and and the ethereum
foundation testing team uh where we're
currently looking for new people so if
you're interested in testing uh come
talk to me or Mario Vega
um
yes so we we want to completely revamp
the way we do state tests
um to make it really really easy for for
people to to implement State tests and
uh to take some load of of the the
client teams
I just wanted to share from a small
client perspective so for Basu honestly
past month has been as equally hectic as
preparing for the merge
um with a bunch of major fixes for bug
fixes so honestly we haven't even
thought of a future eips honestly I
think we even haven't gotten a chance to
rest and a lot of the maintainers
couldn't make it because they're still
working really hard working on the fixes
some even donated some of their
opportunity leave to work on the fixes
um so quite quite intense but I think
afterwards we'll
um hopefully get some time to rest and
get all the maintainers together talk
through what's going to be the future
um you know works that we want to work
on what really resonated me personally
with the earlier Talks by iOS the
subtraction part so I'm hoping that as
maintainers we got to see which part of
our code base could we actually subtract
I think we're still talking about about
what eips are we going to add and add
and add to our code base but I think
there's going to be some like future
like you know Tech not future like Tech
debt from the past to clear out to
modularize
um the the product itself and so looking
into a lot of um I would say client
Improvement is currently where I see
maintainers are talking a lot about but
yeah definitely would
um would have to come talk about eips
yeah
um so I'm prism and I think withdrawals
is important but it's also on the easier
side and on the eip44 we have been lucky
and optimism and then coinbase have been
contributing to our code base so thank
you for that but I do want to throw like
a curveball I think like censorship
resistance is equally as important as
444 and withdraw I just look at Mev
watch info at 47 of the blogs are on the
offback compliance right now so 47 of
the Bloods or main net or have some sort
of censorship resistance yielded to it
right so I do think like there's
something like before full PBS there's
definitely something that we can do to
make it better we do have some hybrid
PBS we can do we can leverage the
Builder API we can iterate very fast we
can have some map boosts CR this type of
thing and we thought this latest
research post does point us to some nice
Direction and point out B also has a
nice research post as well so I'm very
excited for that and I definitely
definitely want to prioritize right now
uh I'm very sympathetic to teams who
talk about wanting time to uh to work on
their client and handle their Technical
backload and I thought that 4844 and
withdrawals was a really good example of
they both kind of individually look like
okay we've got kind of an idea of how
these two things are going to work
but and then putting them in the same
Fork actually does increase complexity
uh for you know minor technical reasons
I I guess you know we're talking about
uh switching the forking based on a
block number two based on timestamp and
you know the the more uh places that you
have to change in the code base uh
the the more work that's going to be
right so 4844 introduces a new
transaction type which means you know
more places that this forking based on
timestamp has to has to happen for
example so
just an interesting place of seeing why
you might get pushback on hey let's only
do one major thing in this next you know
Fork instead of two and and leave room
for maintenance
so so just as an example for this I
actually implemented the forking based
on timestamps for Shanghai which was
like uh a 20 line change and I looked
into uh doing the same thing for uh
sorry for for withdrawals not for
Shanghai
um and I looked into doing the same
thing for four eight four four and it
would be like 70 different files that I
would need to touch just for changing
the uh changing the way we we verify the
signatures and the sign up so
um
it's
individually it's it's okay but together
it creates uh even more complexity
I feel like we've heard a lot of clients
say that they feel that they could spend
some time cleaning things up in their
code base improving in you know
improving things in their code base I'm
just curious to hear from Tim and from
other clients like how should we think
about this in respect to the roadmap and
all the things we want to do because it
seems like we're consistently saying we
need to ship withdrawals yesterday we
need to ship four eight four four three
months ago
vertical trees all these things and it's
not clear to me how to do that and
balance and you know maintaining clients
for the long term
so well while we say that we want to
slow down at the same time I'm thinking
that nevermind is ready to to think like
a big client like the one that is that
is leading the effort on the exploration
so so by the fact that we have the large
team uh we can both keep cleaning the
technical lab but also participate in
the research and prototyping uh so so
we've we've seen we've heard that from
Mikhail talking about has been guys
still there no no okay
um so so he was thinking how much it was
helpful to have the Prototype from
Guillaume right and and how much
Maurice's experimentations were pushing
things forward
um so we have those excited people like
Alexa you know and that in mind and they
they want to explore they want to
experiment and this should help everyone
to to push things forward and and these
deliveries are critical and they're
still time critical I'll be doing that
in parallel even if the field will be
we change this style uh that's that we
do that a bit more mature way I think
that maturity will come also from the
learning from the merge and from the
team being larger so
I think on average the teams grew about
like two to three times in the last two
years on many of the clients teams which
means that we should be able to ship
faster
than in the past and when we look at the
last two years comparing to the 2018-19
uh we've seen that we've seen that pace
and there is much more experience with
the teams people delivered so much
during the merch and they they are
interested in now delivering the things
that they wanted to work on the side and
many of those things that they wanted to
work on the side are the EIP is already
are the items that are interesting like
4844 right so this will happen I think
this will happen
but it's also another factor that we
need to consider yeah but like changing
let's say 10 lines of code or 17 files
two years ago was completely different
than changing the same amount of files
right now the code base is much bigger
the complexity is much uh bigger and you
know sometimes you know Small Change
requires you know days or maybe weeks of
you know research yeah and testing and
testing especially testing here it's
something that we need to improve and so
yeah the teams grow grew but at the same
time it takes much I think it's going to
take much much time to deliver similar
change as the ones in the past
um if I can add something else and on
clients
the right now testing is not much
like the experienced with testing is not
much better than the experience
introducing an EIP I think we need a a
better platform to discuss like the
bottlenecks of ethereum to understand it
like the complexity of syncing of disk
IO and so on and
tools like Hive they are just a stagnant
sometimes as the clients themselves when
it comes to making changes or
improvements
um maybe we're talking about awkward off
changes maybe you should have like a
regular breakout for testing maybe we
should have more of this platform to
discuss how we get out of this
this stacked up into a place where we
can be excited about new eips so so one
thing about Hive is that it's currently
maintained by the guest team and we're
slowly transitioning this over to the
testing team so Mario wrote a lot of
Hive tests for the merch basically all
of the hive tabs tests for the merge and
so
as I said we're trying to increase uh
we're trying to ramp up the size of the
testing team within the ECM foundation
and that should take some local hey I'd
like that if your information is helping
but I don't think the right solution is
to limit it to one team no I agree so I
think as like an open call to anybody if
you are a testing team and like you want
to work on this stuff ping Danny Ryan
and he will answer you any hour or day
any minute of any hour of every day
about improved testing capacity and I
think like I agree it's like a huge ball
deck to be fair I feel like the merge we
did like an amazing job there like
relative to what it was before like when
we shipped 1559 I was like
not 100 confident I was like and then
when the merge went live uh you know
like I was expecting some operator to
mess it up but not like the network to
break like it felt like the testing was
like super robust
um and and and the challenge the
challenge I think with shipping I'll
live like this complicated stuff is
often not like not just that it's hard
but it's like it changes the shape of
the network like it's easy to add the
new OP code right and write test for it
like we have framework for that and now
we have and and like if you want to do
something like blobs
um we don't have like blob testing right
and so we're gonna need to build all
that
um and then then we'll have it and it'll
be easier to like you know grow the size
of blobs or something but then when
we're gonna we want to do I don't know
like daily availability sampling we need
like you need like always to build the
new testing stuff
um and it's kind of hard because like
you can't build it in advance because
you need you need to test something
um so there's this weird like chicken
and egg but do you think like
like we were having the same
conversation in 2018 in Osaka and like
our capacity was like 25 probably of
this so it's like I feel we've we have
gotten better I don't know that it's
ever going to feel better doing the work
which is maybe my thing just like we
just do more or better at it but it
still feels like we're kind of pushing
ourselves because like it's just hard
stuff and you need to build it
um and yeah like I mean you know the
touch on 444 obviously client teams kind
of tired you know want to take a break
want to focus on withdrawals but like
having optimism had step up having coin
Rays step up like we wouldn't even be
talking about 444 if this hadn't
happened and I'm not convinced that like
four years ago it would have been
possible for like
there were no L2 teams but like you know
for like the Plasma Team to like ship
something like that so
yeah I think we're making progress I
don't know that's ever going to feel
better is by rough feeling
so I drained from taking I just moved
from over there
um so the context
um so I think the other Factor that's
slightly interesting is there's this
real cycle to Doing Hard Forks in that
client teams in particular get swamped
it's not really early on the research
team probably gets one first then the
client teams get swamped and then our
work is done and we're kind of waiting
on coordination and there's this lull
and that lull is where we get all of our
client optimizations and all the other
stuff kind of done
um and uh
yeah so that's real opportunity and and
a lot of the community coordination
happens there there's there's a lot of
time it takes to go from the code is
ready and done to the code is tested in
every possible situation and we've
automated all of that in terms of the
cross-client stuff and and the
the level of detail we want for ethereum
and then the code is actually ready from
the community's perspective and all the
tools of updated and so on and all of
those kind of happen to happen in
sequence so as long as we don't shoot
for a massive hard Fork we can get a you
know a little hump of we can get you
know say withdrawals done because
they're relatively simple
pick up a lull and then be ready to to
pick up something big again
um so it's not a case of stop the world
it's just managing those cycles and
probably the other factor is that teams
go through that kind of cycle as well
that you'll have a great team and you're
going well and then someone will get a
better job offer somewhere and you're
kind of suddenly you've got fewer people
on your team and you're rebuilding with
some new people again and yeah all the
client teams are nodding we've all done
it it happens on every team from time to
time it just depends where you are in
that cycle as to how freaking out you
are about the next hard book as well
I don't know
um I was expecting to come and try and
like make a pitch for why it's crazy to
do more than just withdrawals is a big
thing in in the first half Fork after
the merge but actually I've not had a
single core Dev advocate for that so far
so oh but maybe Danka
oh no I moved within arm reach of the
office that's the question anyway
um but I did I did want to ask two um
points about withdrawals um like mostly
to consensus clients um so the first
point is
um a few people have said things like oh
it's a relatively small change and so my
I wanted to just check like is it so um
uh so one of the other sessions recently
one of the points that was made uh was
that
um you know at the at the time that the
um withdrawals become enabled also um
withdraw key rotation becomes available
so there's going to be an enormous queue
of people wanting to do key rotation
there's gonna be massive Mev from those
validators who are trying to exit before
um they get hacked because their key's
been compromised over the last two years
all kinds of other sort of maybe things
you haven't about very much so do those
worry people at all or not at all um and
the second point I wanted to raise about
withdrawals was around whether uh it
kind of links the text out point that
two people have mentioned is uh is there
is there a kind of significant um
quantity of tech get around the deposit
process so so as as withdrawals The
Proposal exists is to create a new
operation for withdrawals it's not a
transaction it's a completely separate
type of thing
um it seems quite natural you might want
to just have a corresponding deposit
operation clean up the deposit contract
deal with the issues like kind of you
know double counting issue it's all this
kind of stuff that would make the
protocol more understandable for future
Generations is anyone interested in that
or is that for later I heard some good
arguments about cleaning up the deposit
contracts to keep the supply in the
balances actually matching all the
expectations rather than looking up or
like burning the the deposits and then
minting through withdrawals so that's
fair I do think deposits are user
initiated and withdrawals are system
initiated so they're fundamentally
different
but yes there's a lot of tech debt there
and yes we will fix it in a hard Fork at
some point
um just to simplify like it's it's
ridiculous the beacon chain is still
voting on what it sees as the Ethan head
after the merge
and it's 8 000 blocks behind
but hey it works right and we didn't
have to touch it and that was good but
we will have to fix that
I'm curious to hear from the 4844 Maxis
the thing about fart for four is is it's
this complement to proof of stake in the
whole dream of Serenity so we're very
motivated to Shepherds at the same time
I think there are goal posts and like
the communication about the state of
ethereum are not that clear and so I'd
like a better platform for testing I'd
like testing to be less stagnant I'd
like to contribute to testing and often
I see that some of the test tooling are
locked into either a research team or
the guest team of hives and if we open
these things more like up and we
communicate it and that's caused about
these things if we I think we can make a
lot more of these quick programs towards
the states we're very happy to to work
on Forex refer other complex upgrades
um yeah I want to share my perspective
on as well I think like we have heard a
lot about tech debt this is which is
like Fair these the the devs here like
they have the best overview of that and
that is like uh a very important point
of course
um but I think we also have a different
kind of debt which is like right now we
cannot serve the vast majority of people
who might want to use ethereum so like I
think like it illustrates my point from
earlier that
um we are having these discussions among
core deaths and they are good and
they're important but somehow uh they
can't be the only input into the
decision making
um so I don't want to Clearly say like I
can't say like we have to do 4844 as
part of Shanghai uh but personally I
would love to see it and I think there
are very good reasons to try to do it
and um and I think like only looking at
the tech depth and saying like we can't
do it because of this and we need to do
everything in sequence
um is is not enough in my opinion in
arguing against it like it's um it's uh
we we have to like at some point also
start seeing the other side like okay so
what what is the consequence of not
doing it like my fear like of course
like if we have say Shanghai
for we managed to do it in February and
then we can do like uh for it for free
for a few months later okay like
everyone's happy with that but like what
happens if actually Shanghai does not
happen in February it happens in June it
happens in September or something when
4844 slips into 2024 I think I mean I
would be fairly unhappy with that so
like we should consider these scenarios
and we should also think about what it
means to ethereum yes it's like it's a
bear market now so maybe we don't have
these high fees as pressure pressing an
issue anymore but I think they are still
actually a pressing issue because right
now maybe like we don't feel the pain as
much because our the things that we have
been doing are fine but still a lot of
applications are not being built because
the fees are too high and because they
can't like the experimentation can't
happen because I can't like do some fun
stuff if things costs one dollar per
transaction which I could do if it's one
cent per transaction so I think like we
should like be more willing to like
think about this part as well and I
would love to like understand how we can
also like get that in that thinking into
our governance Pro process as well
so uh
currently we're releasing artworks uh
basically when it's ready
so the more things we put inside uh the
longer it takes to be ready because of
uh testing for example so
if we actually do withdrawals uh which
are supposedly simple for uh the talk
from yesterday uh was less reassuring
regarding that
um
we can yeah maybe in February we can
have withdrawals and then uh for 804 uh
for the next one but if we put both
together uh maybe it will be only in
June
um so there is a balance there so I
guess one question there is like do you
think it's impossible to have a yeah one
fork in February and then another one
like literally three or four months
later
in London
okay well that's uh I mean one I mean
this is like a discussion but just like
one other thing I wanted to add just
like to what Dan grad said is like
thinking about it from the perspective
of tech debt of layer 2 protocols and of
Roll-Ups right like the yeah one of the
kind of philosophical goals of 4844 I
think was to kind of be a like the
changed the change to end all changes
sort of for uh specifically for warrior
twos in the sense that 4844 introduces
stuff like the point evaluation breaking
pile and the concept of blobs and if
that allows way or two is to kind of set
their code once and they can literally
write their code and launch it and then
you know no matter how much we screw
around with the yeah sharding design
later as long as we kind of screw around
within certain parameters Roll-Ups will
be able to kind of you know breathe easy
and know that you know they don't have
to make like that kind of re-architect
thing again right so I think there's uh
you know there's also a value in trying
to like get that phase done earlier
because you know the earlier they yeah
they can do those uh those kinds of
changes that you know the more they can
get to the phase where like you know
they can start clearing instead of they
have to know that like they have to
clear eventually let's just it's so
worth talking to layer two teams about
that too I mean I'm sure they'll have
their own perspectives
so I guess we various kind of consensus
that we want for 844 and withdrawals
within the next nine months is let's say
so the question becomes both together or
uh withdrawal first and then fight over
and so planning team I I will say one of
the added challenges that the specs for
4844 and capella are not unified so like
he's working on 4844 I'm working on
capella and that's gonna be a hell of a
pull request to try to merge these
things and test them
so they're kind of already written like
they're separate
just
sure so one thing I would add with
regard to hard Forks one versus two is
that you generally with the hard Forks
implementing something takes usually
less time than rolling it out
so uh implementing both withdrawals and
4844 in the same artwork definitely
makes it longer but I think overall it
would still be shorter than doing two
hard works because you have a
um yeah
sorry so
so essentially I think rolling out the
hard work always takes two to three
months of just while every client is
yeah I'm not done yet let's test it
tests are not done yet okay let's do a
hard work this that's not hard Fork
that's that that that's not so we kind
of I don't necessarily want to say we
suck at rolling out things but we don't
really push very hard so if we want to
roll out two hard Forks then you have
this boilerplate time that will eat up
both up from both of them so that's the
extra
I I just want to chime in on dunkrat's
point from the coinbase perspective
that's what I represent and I know that
we're still here kind of building trust
you know convincing it like I get it I
get it like it's the first time you've
had me in this room
um but you know we've been we've been
working with Proto for the last five
months on eip4844 implementing an
imprisonment spec uh prism in Geth and I
think to doncrat's point the difference
between like each one of next year and
2024 for a business like coinbase is
massive and I think the way that shows
up is we have products that we've built
on chain smart contracts that we want to
be launching like literally we want to
be launching in Q4 in q1 of next year
and we can't right now and that is
because at the scale that we're
operating at where we're talking about
bringing millions or tens of millions
customers into those contracts in our
wallet products fully non-custodially
it's just too too expensive most of our
customers who are not in the US can't
pay for it and we as a business
especially in the bear Market can't
subsidize the cost for them and so what
that means is that in the context of
these conversations the people who may
be don't understand the technology
benefits of decentralization or security
they then go and say hey there's all
these other evm chains they have sub one
cent fees can we just deploy this thing
on that like would that be a faster can
get can that get this thing shipped in
q1 and it's up to the people like me
maybe or others the company who who
understand the whole process and why
we're doing Roll-Ups and why this is
such an important investment from a
decentralization security perspective
say no like we need to wait we need to
wait for this to have the right solution
and so I think waiting until the
beginning of next year you know first
half of next year I feel like that's
like a thing we can hold we can make it
happen waiting until 2024 is really hard
that's going to be a real challenge for
us and so I think I think from from
where I sit
um our feeling is like let's make the
list of all of the things that all of
the people in this room feel like we
need in order to feel comfortable and if
that's better monitoring of the network
so we can understand bandwidth if that's
better testing so we can feel more
confident in the change that we're
making uh whatever it is like give us
the list give optimism the list and
we're ready to throw resources at this
and support this and I know that again
we have a lot of trust to build that
will come through in its work a year
from now I hope that there's a lot more
trust here but I do want a voice like
that's the impact for for a business
like us and we're ready to come to the
table with you all and work together to
figure out how do we make it so the end
result is tens of millions or hundreds
of millions of more users are using
ethereum by the middle of the end of
next year
so
excuse me
[Applause]
I I have I have
two rebuttals to uh to to putting uh for
it for four in into Shanghai
um
one of them is uh
I don't I don't I don't see any Roll-Ups
that are trustless right now uh most of
them don't implement the the fraud
proofs uh they're putting the data
on chain but the data is not really used
for anything so uh like you cannot use
it to to prove that the that the that
the Roll Up is wrong
and so if we Implement Bank sharding
we basically say to the community use
these Roll-Ups but the Roll-Ups are not
secure
um
I think that's kind of a
it's a minor problem it's it's uh the
other thing
the bigger problem I I see is that from
yesterday's conversation just doesn't
seem ready yet so withdrawals
the way I see it are basically done
they're like they are implemented in
some of the clients already
um the specs seems to be pretty stable
and with Deng sharding we recently had a
new fee Market change that
I don't know how much thought has has
been put into it from from my point of
view it
it like the the fee Market change at
some some 1559
like uh thing and from my point of view
it looks like we have a hammer the 1559
hammer and now every everything looks
like a nail and um so I think there has
to be more
oh oh yeah yeah so sorry sorry yeah okay
you know
we want to do this
like this change was like in the
pipeline for like months I think it
wasn't like something we suddenly came
up with this was clear we wanted to do
this and we do have the change in when
they didn't get in prison in a live
devnet okay yeah yeah so but those are
the things that
those those are things that are uh that
we're not not quite clear to me and um
so from my point of view
we could ship with uh withdrawals
easily January uh especially if we if we
uh like kick out some of them
yes
now yeah
okay it's probably a bigger change for
the for the consensus layer I think for
the execution layer it's it's pretty uh
pretty much done and
um okay okay okay maybe I'm I'm totally
wrong here
um
but I I agree with the argument that
so even if we were to ship uh
withdrawals in January
um I think we could own the ship uh tank
sharding
um September of of 2023
if we were to do both we can probably
ship it somewhere in the middle and so
actually would if I if I really have if
I really think about it it would
probably cut to two months uh to to both
of it even even though I don't like it
and even though I don't like to admit it
um but I think it might be the right
thing to do
you have is probably that it is a bit
more risky to do both at the same time
and I think like most people would
probably agree with that like that
making a bigger change definitely adds
to the risk of the hard Fork itself
um and I think we also should have an
honest conversation on in which cases we
are willing to accept those risks
because what we're doing is just so
important that maybe like some risks
have to be accepted as part of doing it
yeah Paul from techu Team just on that I
mean there's a couple of aspects maybe
we need to get better at doing hard
forks and releasing them honestly it's a
long time between code completion and
getting to getting to that gate that may
be a thing we need to address but the
other side of it Playing devil's
advocate
I understand that 4844 might be
important and if it's relatively well
defined
there's nothing physically stopping us
from doing that first
and just delivering 4844 and not
delivering withdrawals I mean it's a it
is it is an actual option that we have
no I'm playing Devil's Advocate sure
Paul is not representing the views of
the teku team
this is no but it's a fair comment this
is purely my view but in reality if two
is too hard and we want to deliver this
early in a timely manner to not stuff
over businesses that is an option that
we do have
yeah we should absolutely focus on doing
the most important thing first always
um I think the point that's come up a
couple of times is you know when we ship
withdrawals and it's actually when we
finish code completion because running
through test Nets doesn't take quarter
of time we put out a release it should
be pretty quick and easy there is
coordination cost and it consumes all
core devs for a while so you've got to
know what's coming next if you're going
to paralyze it but it's code completion
that's the big thing I'll give it to
them
uh in between I just pop in
um so in my opinion withdrawals are kind
of specked out so it I mean there are
variations but it's simple it's really
really simple whereas with the 4844 that
will most definitely take a lot more
time to spec out and it has a lot more
potential problems with denial of
service and everything it affects
Network so withdrawals that's just a
tiny consensus change you know tweak a
bit the data structures and done with uh
with 4844 that has a much deeper
implication so I think it it will
require a lot more work
and in my opinion it would be much
simpler to say that okay for withdrawals
are definitely going in and maybe give a
cut off that if we for some reason 4844
gets complicated and we cannot finish it
by
month X then just say okay we're rolling
with the withdrawals first and then
whatever whatever the other is ready
so quick question from me because I
heard the term a few times like about
code completion and then rolling the the
change and that we are very slow in the
second part but you know I I joined
right yeah I'm I'm a new guy but what I
observed with the merge we we shift
shift in middle of September but what I
observed
flag from my the definition I know the
code was not completed in August and
some teams were like
pushing the changes at the very end and
for me like when you say that code is
completed you know you
you've been testing you start testing
and you don't introduce new changes yeah
so the code is stable so
it looked a bit different from my
perspective yeah I agree the merge was
not a case where we were called complete
three months before
um so yeah but but we have done that
before right like and and you know again
I think burden London was like a good
example as soon as we were kind of code
complete on burden we started working on
London before like it shipped and part
of the reason for that three-month delay
is not like for the client teams it's
for like everyone running your node like
folks like coinbase because usually like
people like and not the coinbase here
like people just don't care about the
hard Forks until they're like announced
on a blog post on blog.etherium.org
um and then they're like holy and
then they like message me and they're
like oh my God we need to like upgrade
all our infrastructure and you know and
especially so if like it's a complicated
hard Fork if it's just like introducing
a new OP code
um they need to upgrade their notes and
still sometimes you know they're like oh
we need like two months to do that or
something so it's it's worth noting like
we can set our schedules somewhat
independently of like the release
schedule
um but that doesn't necessarily mean you
want to like do cold complete and ship
two weeks later because there's still
value in giving people time to upgrade
and I I would also argue the merge was
like cutting it close and
um
I think you know the merger's like a big
change the environment bits the like
proof of statements so I think there was
a bunch of variables in that one
um but if you do historically we've been
like kind of slow but I think that's
that's like healthy for people like peop
people who like are not core developers
should not have to look at this stuff
every day to know like is there a hard
fork in 10 days right
uh diano basal maintainer um one of the
ideas that you you sent me once uh Tim
that might help because I'm hearing a
lot of just talk about
um lots of bandwidth Lots needed in in
the layer one
um what if we prototype some of our
ideas relating to things like evm and
transaction formats on a layer two and
that way the libraries and the tooling
could adopt to that on the layer 2 stuff
and then all the downstream stuff is
ready and then layer one can implement
it when they have the bandwidth um and
not having to rush in and get those in
so you can get cool things like BLS
transaction formats sooner rather than
in 2024 or 2025.
I really do like the idea at the same
time via Slayer 2 optimism especially
we're trying not to stray away from
layer 1 where we create conflicts in
development we are literally just trying
to if we could we would run GAF without
modifications we don't want to be
different
and often I just like client teams
they're one developers to be more
receptive towards changes but also
testing and like creating confidence in
these changes
as there to authorize
you get this conflict of interest where
okay you want to make the change to be
special on new and exciting and cheap
but you you're not shipping the ethereum
dream
yes
like and especially data availability
like foreign we can't even ship it on
Layer Two every like we created layer
three situation with a much much smaller
validator sound
when we go through that big list of uh
proposed EIP stuff that's coming up in
the next thing like half of them are
just evm stuff and that stuff is easy to
push through but then you get into the
situation like we had with subroutines
where it was implemented it was ready
and then the week before the first test
net all of a sudden it gets ripped out I
mean I I like the idea but your voice in
the exact concern how do we get the
commitment that if it's done it will
ship on layer one without substantial
change because then if you have these
changes on Layer Two and they change
substantially then it's a burden on the
layer 2 Chain if they put it on on one
of their Premier chains rather than on
testnet
so one thing to answer here is that I
think it's very
from the outside it it's a bit strange
because it kind of looks like there is
commitment to go with an EIP and in
reality what at least what I've
experienced is that most layer one most
execution clients won't even touch any
IP until somebody else actually
implements it and verifies that it's
correct so usually you have the EIP
authors which kind of has to beg one of
the clients to please implement it and
and everybody is just waiting for that
client to implement and find all the
corner cases and when when the code apps
say that okay we are releasing this EIP
in three months and everybody goes into
this holy mode and okay let's
quickly implement it and then we kind of
like pursue this dream of Roll-Ups I was
like
like comparative execution layers on top
of a secure data layer that's minimal
and like widely decentralized
but right now just we don't have a layer
2 evm standards but I mean what if you
wind up in a situation like coven where
you had a part of the chain that ran
with wasm and then all of a sudden
wasm's gone then all of a sudden one
client they can run Watson's gone and
you can't run the chain from zero is
that a bad thing is it an okay thing
I would say it's pretty pretty bad so
it's it's basically just shoving teched
up to layer twos and then the cost is
incurred by users being confused by
their smart contract works on 110 not
the other 10. right
oh just yeah we can wrap up here we're
like yeah yeah we can I mean if there's
final comments we can do that then maybe
we should take a short break but just
want to make sure we wanted to keep the
last hour to discuss actual eips
um because we we don't usually have like
forums to do that with all the client
teams so
um if people want to have less comments
or take a short break you can do that
but let's take a break for like five
minutes and then let's have the Shanghai
AAP outers lineup or switch the spots
with the yeah
thank you okay go to the bathroom
[Applause]