[Music]
Austin
kibble Rahul
rumala and Romina
[Applause]
buo thank you so much everyone please go
ahead and thank you everyone for staying
here all this session
okay check can you guys hear me okay sa
C Bangkok Welcome to our talk or panel
uh super excited to be here thank you
for uh thank you to ethereum Foundation
Devcon for having us first of all so we
are going to take the next 45 minutes to
uh talk about some some of the topics
that we feel super passionate about
which is data privacy user privacy just
users and product in general so with
that uh I just want to introduce myself
my name is Rahul uh I've been in crypto
for a while I'm at currently VP at safe
uh leading product engineering and uh
today we are essentially with these
three talented individuals which I will
let them introduce themselves so first
uh I hand it off to Romina yeah hi
Romina bad is my name I'm founder of
capital we are an onchain risk and
investment management firm um um yeah
I've been in the space since 2017 and
mostly building on the capital market
and institutional
side all right hi everyone I'm Austin uh
designer at Dune um we have another
designer in the audience here at Dune uh
thank you for joining um been in the
space for a while been designing uh in
the space since around 2020 um and
hanging out as a participant before that
so and hi um I'm Alice I'm a data
analyst at safe I work with the product
team to help them understand their users
build features that respond to user
needs and evaluate the impact of new
features that we
launch um and I've been in this space
for about a couple years and before that
I was working um for the UK government
with policy designers and also product
designers to do exactly the same thing
building for users and
citizens so are you all ready to talk
about users and data and privacy and all
that should bang let's go let's go let's
go all right so firstly I just want to
set some context right um uh so product
Discovery we call this a process you
know to understand users problems and
using that knowledge to build uh the
product so in the world of web 3 where
things like anonymity and privacy
Prevail the question is that how can
teams identify user problems user
segments and collect the right data so
to understand their behaviors so as we I
mean we heard this a lot today as we aim
to uh onboard the next billion uh web3
users so the question really becomes how
should we balance building user Centric
products in a privacy Centric ecosystem
and with this panel we hope to
accomplish touching on some of those uh
points so to set the first question uh I
want to set another context here it's
been uh 10 years uh since uh Devcon zero
which started in uh qub Berlin uh right
where Romina and I are from for example
uh lot has changed uh lot of new
products lot of new problems lot of new
users and uh opportunities as well and
uh so it's it's super nice to see how
things have changed and put that into
context right so kind of like let's have
a little bit of an ice breaker uh just
to kind of get the discussions going
right uh so this is a question for all
of you all uh what type of a crypto user
are you and what is your current
relationship with
privacy okay I can start so I think I
come from more like from the defi side
um also for my personal uses so I'm not
so much um using the social aspect of uh
the projects uh that have been built but
I for example organize my wallets like I
have one hot wallet that is basically my
avatar or it's connected to my Twitter
handle. e and uh this is basically where
I hold just like some assets so I can
pay with Dy or Stables just like I
always have like a 100 or2 200 years and
some stable coins have some nfts and
maybe also some um additional eth for
for gas fees um so this is the the one
that I want to use for non-sensitive
interactions it's also public right like
people that know my Twitter name they
can look it up so I'm aware about that
so for um my business activities I then
have a signer just to sign transactions
in the companies for example with the
multi setup so it always has like a
signature deficit um it manages a lot of
transactions they are sensitive um but
there's there are no assets held on this
um it's also nice for me to keep my tax
accounting overhead low because I can
basically do my tax filings just like
with one C3 download and then it's more
convenient for me and then for all the
other assets or my portfolio composition
and I have like a dedicated e wallet or
I have a wallet on another chain and I
yeah basically have a little Excel list
to keep keep an overview of uh my
wallets that are also segregated and
they are also funded sometimes from
accounts that are not directly connected
to my other to address so there is like
my personal privacy approach but it's
not a technical
solution all right so I think that
there's different buckets uh in the
space I mean you have your privacy
purist maybe your wallet Wanderers who
are willing to just connect willy-nilly
um and then maybe in the midd middle uh
utility Seekers I think I'm a utility
Seeker so if I see that I can get some
clear value from something I'm like
happy to to connect and share and in
general just in general uh you know I
think um I'm I'm Pro transparency um but
also when it comes to kind of financial
activity I guess I was brought up not to
really talk about money so it's strange
to initiate a digital conversation with
your like uh I guess like Financial
history uh so maybe uh yeah what Romina
mentions kind of resonates on that front
um but uh but yeah I think what really
inspired me to get into the space was
ownership in the end um I saw that
creative people could uh to have could
have ownership you could have more
people on cap tables actually owning
parts of projects and businesses so
that's what inspired me to get into the
space but I think there has to be that
value exchange so I'd say I'm a a
utility Seeker I'm willing to uh that's
kind of my take on privacy I'm happy to
to commit information if I feel if I
understand the value exchange there
so that that's quite well put I'd say
I'm a utility Seeker on that point um as
a crypto user I'm probably one of your
inactive users uh I'm one that puts
money in but never takes money out or
doesn't actually really engage with all
the products that we have out there just
because I still feel like the learning
curve is too big to invest and I don't
have the patience so I put money in I
don't take it out um I don't really do
transactions um from a privacy point of
view my personal privacy I feel like
I've not really thought about I feel
like I was born in the internet age and
I don't really care how people use my
data I just say
that's the world we live in and I've
I've got to that's the trade-off I make
for the convenience that I get but as a
data analyst especially coming from
government I care very much about how
the company that I work with leverages
the data of our users so I'm very
privacy focused when it comes to our
users um not so much my
data yeah that's already super
interesting because we have like very
different personas of how we use and
what type of user you are so I think
it's kind of like a excellent stage for
the next question which I want to ask
Romina uh as someone who's been in the
industry for uh quite quite a long time
how do you feel like the users of our
industry has changed over the years and
how has this affected uh the the
industry in general yeah so at the
beginning there was obviously many
infrastructure um or um tech for
managing our interactions missing so at
the beginning there was safe wasn't
around yet right there was multi6
Solutions have just started to be built
so uh my first wallet was uh my ether
wallet um and um yeah it was very
cumbersome you had to basically write
down every every step of how you would
interact or to to keep an overview so do
you X um has been um massively upgraded
I think we actually also sometimes have
have better ux for certain aspects when
we think about our websites or you know
like the the when we connect our wallets
all that part I find this great but um
yeah so we saw the shift from a rather
developer focused ux or also the design
Styles so some projects you still see
that they use Font Styles like you would
have in a coding terminal or just like
they also design their products how a
terminal is structured for example but
you see that less and less and projects
sometimes uh pivot a bit there um ux
designs or the flows tailored to their
users when they got learned more about
them over the course of the time but
some projects are also kind of dogmatic
and stick to a rather cumbersome
ux uh one that was um keeping quite
attached uh to their terrible um '90s ux
was cury at the beginning um I guess
many of you remember basically looked
like Windows uh
95 um yeah but then there were for
example nft mint and cream experiences
where you could like with a mini
computer set like the features of the
nft or the Avatar you wanted to M so you
could basically set the metadata
function and then the metadata was then
giving you for example a feature card of
the Avatar or the Persona that you have
been minted and that was amazing so
there have been some great Solutions
pioneered now we just need them to be
adopted in the big apps or um yeah
chains that we are using yeah so I think
that's that's interesting and uh also
like I remember uh the last time uh I
was in Devcon Prague for example I was
building my first company and I was
talking to the users there you know like
just asking how should we build this and
uh one of the feedbacks I have received
is uh that uh if you're building in
crypto you should be building for crypto
users
first so let that sink in right like
that was the a very maximalist belief
back maybe in 2016 2017 I wouldn't say
it's probably like widespread but it was
a very strong belief so maybe like Alice
tin you all have been in the industry
maybe for 3 four years I would say as a
user how does that perspective make you
all feel like how did you all experience
the same or was it still the same when
you entered and has that
changed yeah sure
um I would totally agree with this I
think if you're building for crypto and
you want to gain user adoption then
you've got to build things that are
built on say account abstraction but
without using that term you know if
you're if you're doing a account
abstraction the right way the truth is
your user won't know that it's built on
account abstraction they won't even know
that it's built on web 3 they might not
even know there's digital assets
powering it and we're seeing this with
things like poly Market or worldcoin
those are the real apps that are gaining
traction and that are actually on
boarding users today um but
without being you wouldn't they wouldn't
call themselves crypto users or web3
users necessarily and it's just un
blocking a lot of use cases that you
don't see any anywhere
else yeah to follow up on that um I
think at the beginning so I've been a
participant in the space I guess for
maybe seven years something like that
and then just designing for the past
three or four um so I've seen a little
bit of the evolution not like super OG
but I think at first it was the secret
club and the language that we use I I
appreciate Romina talking about like
even the design and the aesthetic um uh
but the language that we used both the
visual language and the written language
um was kind of exclusive like we wanted
it to be this secret handshake Club I I
think that's actually fine early on so
when you heard this comment I think uh
it might have been that might have been
fine for the time you know you you were
solving super hard problems um around
like decentralization and privacy and
cryptography and now a lot of that is
table stakes and it's time to to grow
and to like communicate not only
internally but like externally um and
the good news I I mean I have a lot of
critiques maybe we're not doing this
enough
um but we are seeing like real use cases
like my in-law family in Argentina um I
mean they're all over like stable coins
and it's very common practice I just had
um uh a friend from Argentina like put
put a down payment on a house uh using
you know crypto um and they're like how
you know like uh current like Exchange
locations you know because you need to
put all the money up front because you
don't have like sophisticated financing
options a lot of times so it's you know
I think that we are like solving very
at first it was very abstract but now I
think we're solving very core like human
problems so stability for example like
why do people want stable coins well
like Argentina experienced over 200%
inflation you can't plan for the future
you can't save you can't you know make
plans for your family and so and it's
not about making money it's just like
keeping money right and so I think
that's why some of the stuff we're
making is really taking off and um it's
a testament to some of these secret
handshakes early on you know like some
of this like secret club stuff like they
you know solving really difficult
problems and now I think we can have
more Nuance takes on privacy for example
with zero knowledge proofs and um you
know but I think it is time to to
develop like a a more I guess I guess
like a just a I just just to talk to
more people and um that is one thing
that I haven't been doing for that long
so I can't take credit for the design
but I like that I feel like they they're
trying to speak to more people um and
there's some other really great projects
out there too if I can connect to what
you just said you mentioned um the the
users in countries like Argentina for
example in stable coin interactions um
so here when we think about yeah should
you cater this dogmatism about yeah
should you cater to crypto native users
first and then yeah they there you have
like these certain ux designs that are
maybe a bit crypto Anarchist inspired
and it was it's actually intentional
right
um and those approaches like cater to
Crypton native maybe first was true for
projects like safe right for example
safe has grown and has adopted by now we
have like swap um Solutions natively
integrated the user doesn't even have to
know that um he has to look it up on the
web on Google for example if he wants to
trade on cwap he will get it selected or
in an interface nicely presented and
safe um but but there are also use cases
like when we want to cater to these
people in Emerging Markets where some
solutions didn't work and now CeeLo for
example has um great traction with um
catering crypto users and um these are
basically telephone or mobile phone
users that get a crypto wallet spun up
um connected to their telep phone that
they have or their mobile device um and
they're not even aware that they're
using the blockchain chain um so there's
this partnership mini pay together with
Oprah and I think these are great
designs so it's a very different
approach than catering to crypto native
users first and then learn and adopt so
depending on what your use case is your
approach could look very different so
knowing your user well or like where
your solution has the high impact I
think should um yeah give you the
orientation on which approach you follow
I thought the quote said the opposite I
thought you said if you want to build
for crypto you should not build for
crypto users which is what what I
believe is what we should do um that's
true so I think it's about knowing your
users but it's also about knowing your
potential users right because if we just
rehash what do we know about our web
three users today and what are they
doing and how are they interacting on
chain we're missing all the other aspect
and then you know not even thinking
about about what are the users that are
not currently on chain doing and what is
the purpose for bringing them on chain
so so that's an interesting segue right
like uh knowing uh the users and knowing
what the users want like if I can throw
in this very age old adage by uh
apparently by Henry Ford you know if I
asked my customers what they want they
would have asked for Faster Horses right
uh so I think in we're in this uh
industry where the user is a wallet
wallet is almost an identity and that
identity does not have like something
like an email or a persona for example
so I think when building for this user
what H how can we as Builders
effectively collect data or what
patterns we can observe to actually uh
solve problems like what are the actual
problems rather than shipping out
features left and right right and I
think I would start with Austin here
kind of like cuz you spend a lot of time
of your day building talking to users
and building for users so how how do you
go about it
then yeah just to start I think the Ford
Foundation can't confirm this quote uh
but I think they said something like
that's something like he would have said
uh so we can all make a tcid agreement
that said it um and I think in this case
the key is um to to try to find the
subtext you know when someone tells you
they're having a problem or they want a
product or a feature request um in this
case case it would be like they want to
go faster right um people are experts in
their problems and and the challenges
they face but not necessarily in how to
solve them um and so uh yeah I I think
that it's uncovering uh the fundamental
human need um and there aren't actually
that many um you know as I mentioned
earlier I think sometimes people want
stability um they want their time back
they want money they want rewards of the
tribe so you know social affirmation
from the people around them um they
might enjoy the reward of the hunt you
know um like for example I know like the
analyst on duner I think enjoy the hunt
I think they want to find that insight
and there's also an element of uh
self-mastery you know like let's see
what I can create um but it's really
there I don't think there are that many
fundamental human needs so I think it's
uh trying to be clear um you know not
talk about the features uh necessarily
that we're that we're shipping all the
time and we could as designers I like I
could get better at this and I most
everyone could get better at this just
like tying this to like a really core
fundamental need I think we don't
because it sounds too simple um but uh
but I think sometimes there's a
sophistication in simple um
yeah there's a bunch of different things
you could do
so one thing with the data is always to
marry quantitative with qualitative so I
do a lot of the Quant stuff I've done
qual stuff in the past but we've got
some lovely people at safe who do it
very well uh but it's under
understanding how people are using your
tool from the data but then going and
asking them and there's a lot of
techniques you can use you know why you
ask five times why so you say you need
this why do you need it and then you ask
that five times and you'll realize that
the fifth answer is so completely
different to what they said initially
because people tend to think I want this
and they tend to think about the feature
that they want rather than the problem
they're trying to solve with that
feature and you as the engineer as the
dev you're better place to understand
understand kind of how to
technically answer that need um that
someone without the context of how your
product is built can um but I face the
same thing with data you know I'm
surrounded by people who say I want this
metric and if you ask them why do you
want this metric it's to measure an
outcome and I realized that the metric
they actually want doesn't quite match
the outcome it's about well if you want
to measure that outcome I suggest we
track this or that metric and it's
always coming back to as an expert it's
about being able to realize you're the
expert in the room and um trying to
understand from your users what they
really need and I have to say like in
web 3 we're still such a small space
that we can go out to users users want
our products to grow they're they've
adopted our products and they want to
keep them you know evolving and we
should leverage that relationship that
we have that in web two it's really hard
to do you know here here people want to
help you out you know and they want to
see have a better experience using your
product going forward so let's leverage
that as
well yeah please yeah to that point I
mean we I I I completely agree I think a
lot of times in in the research space
there's this battle between uh the
qualitative feedback people and the
quantitative feedback people um either
they're wired that way or that's where
their skill set is um but I think that
they tell different parts of the story
um so you know you have I think the
quantitative is really good at telling
you what's happening um and you know
observing actual Behavior because a lot
of times people don't tell you um or
they're not even aware of their their
actual Behavior but then you can follow
that up with you know conversations or
observing the space and this doesn't
always have to be like formal long form
interviews um I think we do a pretty
good job right now just uh by you know
I'm trying to do this more uh engage on
Twitter or in telegram groups and get
it's it's not just one ation it's kind
of a relationship and you can get that
kind of like ambient signal and then see
is there any discrepancy between that
and like the actual Behavior or the data
and maybe there's like something
interesting there like something that's
worth worth exploring um so
yeah yeah I think what you described um
how you approach like um pulling data
and getting like an overview of
different um crypto interactions is what
we can already track about them on chain
but there are also some parts of of the
user um flow or flow of funds that we
might not see yet so from when we look
at the capital markets industry it's
very um common that for very big trades
when we think about ETFs or large funds
when a rebalancing happens or someone
basically dissolves a position those
trades are not made like in the public
market um but because they have the
potential to move the market so they are
then fractionalized and traded away in
for example dark pools where there's
like an OTC so an offchain matching
about like um where the the buy and the
sell side agree on a price and then it
gets basically cleared and traded and
settled and so on so um those type of in
more institutional use cases and they
are still done in the centralized
exchange context um because here we have
rather a logic like we know them from
stock markets and bond markets and so on
so there are some data points that yeah
we don't see yet so it's really
important to yeah know the user and the
ultimate goal where he wants to but
sometimes our technology also has
advantages where the user doesn't know
what feature he wants because he doesn't
really know that this is a problem
that's already solvable and you have to
Pioneer the technology so this is where
we still have some frictions and it
makes sense to pay attention have like
user interviews often and not only do
the data analytics so I have a question
on the you mentioned like uh use case of
uh rebalancing portfolios right so if I
remember correctly this is like there
are programmable uh Solutions out there
that'll automate rebalancing of
portfolios right so essentially these
are I guess you can call them Bots you
know and when you look at like from a
data angle when you look at AC ity
onchain uh transactional
activity are we seeing essentially Bots
as real users are we an industry where
Bots are legitimate users it depends my
my answer is always it depends it
depends on what you're trying to measure
right so I read a stat the other day I
think Chad GPT gave me that stat but 50%
of internet activity is bots so I think
it's no lower in crypto it's probably
higher um if they're airdrop farmers and
you're trying to measure real adoption
of your chain and they're just farming
for your Chain's airdrop then you
probably don't want to see them as real
users but if they're active traders who
are actively using your D5 protocol and
are making 60% of the
volume I'd say they probably are active
users they're generating the volume that
you're getting fees from or that you're
you know they are generating real
activity they are powered by humans at
the end of the day who are using your
protocol actively in comparison to
another dii protocol to to make money
could could you want to yeah maybe
connecting to what you said with the
Bots and that they are probably also a
higher amount in our industry and when
we think about air trop farming also
hamster like maybe some of you saw the
presentation earlier ton I mean like the
technical approach to it is really
powerful I think and abstracting gas
fees or have payment Master accounts
like has a great potential for um more
the average users but in the trading
space for example um here we have also
like some very granular um differences
when we for example look at the amount
of accounts right um ton showed us these
accounts numbers but or wallet numbers
that have been spin up um in telegram
but actually like I use this um to to
air to farm or hamster the air drop or I
gave it to my daughter when she had like
too much energy um but then after 3 days
we forgot about it and since then it's
like a d account um so I think that's
still like part of that um but there are
also some bot or trading activity that
has like very different logic um and
where it's powerful for example like in
from the trading side um and I think the
financial side is still like one of the
most um relevant when we think think
about the blockchain like the impact
that blockchain can have for the users
uh that don't have access yet so yeah I
can also talk more and more but I want
don't want to take up more space the
question is really how what what's the
quality of that user whether it's a
human or bot it doesn't really matter
what's what's the quality and what's the
kind of long-term quality of of that
user you mentioned I mean it's it's
interesting actually it's kind of going
to the topic what I wanted to also
highlight which is
uh definition of a active user in web 3
where you know identity is so fragmented
in our space uh we use accounts like uh
almost like avatars uh right so so what
is what is uh the the current definition
of a an active user uh and I'm kind of
curious how from a quantitative side how
you look at it and from a qualitative
side how Austin would probably look at
it and as a user perhaps you know how
Romina would have that perspective of
categorization your opening a can of
warms um I don't know who was at dun con
yesterday but I think every other talk
was talking about how it's very
difficult to measure active users how
this measure is explored
Etc I think again it depends on your
project so we're not just measuring
things we're trying to understand
measure outcomes to measure the success
of a particular product of a particular
feature so an active user can mean very
different things for different protocols
you know so safe started off for example
as a self custody multi-i solution it's
the safest smart contract out there to
save your to keep your
funds the way we could have measured
active users four or five years ago was
how many users are depositing funds
storing value in saves you know now
we're trying to get with the world
evolving and smart accounts becoming uh
more prominent we're try trying to bring
activity led by smart accounts and not
just EA so what's important to us is how
many users are actually using those
funds that they deposited on safe so
while back so an active user that could
have been just a user depositing fund
now becomes an user that is actually
using those funds and trans transacting
volume right so it really depends on
your product and you have to think about
what definition makes sense in in that
context yeah I also have like a bunch of
user groups in mind or how I break them
down so I think when we start with the
crypto natives we would have the Wales
or we would have the dents that ape we
would have the crypto curious that um
take the time and get involved but it's
not like they're doing a lot or have
like a lot of funds that they are
gambling around with and then we have
like the for example the emerg market
user that does uh that uses um it for
remittance or also for um a wealth
creating product um so here just like
stable coin adoption or whatever so yes
these are probably also single wallets
or here we we can trace like wallet
interactions but when we um think about
like Capital markets then a wallet is
not a user so I would be careful to
always for to generalize that a wall
wallet is always equivalent to a user
because we have sub account Logics right
where like accounts execute certain
strategies or it's a wall or whatever
and the user is not the wallet but it's
like on a very different aggregation
level um and yeah I think like when we
think about in the numbers of for
example the speed of transaction right
like which infrastru structure or um
route are they taking through like the
trades it's very different for example
high frequency trading would would also
need to use very different combinations
of chain or would have also um cross
chain or multi-chain
complexities um they are much easier um
for like let's say investors value
investors that hold positions and have
sometimes um like a trade and here it's
yeah more about abstracting probably
like the general Key Management the
chain management and yeah so I see like
very different angles a lot of what you
you actually shared as a user uh these
tend to be like offchain uh interactions
or workflows this is actually some can
be on chain as well but like I guess a
lot of I just want on chain examples I
try to give yeah but did they like uh or
not financial institutions I didn't um
explicitly describe that because they
also have wallets and need certain user
functionalities and here we have a big
impact for for safe uh for
example uh there's a lot of offchain
activity of like collecting approving
signatures uh which which which uh means
that the users are actually interacting
with your app uh and there is just one
simple use case right and when we spoke
about quantitative data qualitative data
a lot of the uh industry reports tend to
focus or overly focus on like onchain
activity as like does a work flows yeah
in organizations where like um wallets
are already used so I think like they're
so safe is one approach right just like
a multi-c approach and there it already
has like the permission management but
then there's also other wallets um or
yeah basically signature tools like fire
blocks right we have like MPC and
privacy technology here also security um
technology that helps to um abstract uh
Key Management
but also allows for like building an
interface and then you have like
different permissions for depending on
which user or what they can see you know
that they don't see all the data or not
or you can have randomizers over certain
wallets so that like if an exchange in
the category of a financial institution
for example that um people that send
funds to a wallet that is owned by a
centralized exchange they wouldn't be
able to trace like all the other wallets
of a centralized exchange right
so yeah and I think uh I want to like
get some of uh Austin's uh perspective
so I just want to shift Focus uh a
little bit um just compared to web 2
right like we're talking about offchain
onchain like what are some like
tradeoffs that you feel like we make in
web 3 that differ uh from web 2 in terms
of like General
practices oh man I had a really good
answer to the last question and you'll
have to come to my next panel um but uh
uh so some trade-offs um I think as I
mentioned earlier we've been um we've
been optimizing for like solving very
fundamental problems around like
decentralization um and autonomy and you
know like I said I think those are table
Stakes now um and we have to start
thinking about maybe until
we until we really uh improve the kind
of web 3 experience till exceeds the web
two experience we have to to think about
um how we can use those moments so for
example like uh you know how can we
alter our language to speak to people
more clearly how can we communicate you
know we talked about are you a privacy
purist or um or kind of you know a data
a wallet Wanderer or more of a utility
Seeker I think uh copy is actually
really important like to communicate the
message I think a lot of times we put
tons of information in the
documentation um or in the t's and C's
and uh this this is something a lot of
times teams don't have copywriters and
it's something that I think a lot of
designers reluctantly do um but it's
worth taking the time and this is a pain
point you know for me uh to really
communicate clearly the The Exchange
like what are you getting and what are
you giving um especially if you want to
onboard more people um I think that's
super important and then just things
like you know fix you know transa like
uh transactions taking a lot of time um
you know these sorts of things like
until we fix that we have to think about
those as opportunities to you know
educate or entertain or engage um so
that there are lots of little moments
like that that are slightly different in
web 3 but ideally we just we just solved
that yeah and and we we can we can move
on to you know creating Next Level
experiences and we're not trying to like
fill these moments with uh with
fixes um I think I just want to like as
we're nearing probably like we got like
eight minutes left and I wanted to kind
of shift Focus is maybe like the future
outlook of our industry uh so the
question to all of you all uh preferably
is looking ahead like how can the the
web three industry onboard like a
diverse user base without compromising
user privacy are there emerging tools or
practices Frameworks that you feel like
you're excited
about yeah maybe I can um connect to one
of the examples I gave earlier that was
around signature signature management so
Solutions like fire blocks um MPC
technology or um CK kyc um like Mina
protocol or a few other projects are
working on um yeah basically verifying
that you're like for example allowed
you're on the allowed list to use a
certain um service without sharing your
private data that can be like yes from
exams from the financial world but it
could also be related to Health Data and
so on where it's really sensitive data
that should not get access um to other
people so with MPC you would for example
expose that data um but uh you would not
um um expose that data you would conceal
that data but for example
MPCs uh you would always have like um um
yeah part of the secret would always be
held by the um NPC technology provider
um but fhe for example fully homomorphic
encryption uh yeah is basically yeah
where you can see or the data and
also um yeah verify it in
a in a bit more complex technical way I
I'd probably challenge this a little bit
I I don't think the way to get towards
privacy is to give a third party exactly
access that's why you have to choose
different types of privacy Technologies
depending on the case that's what I was
trying to to to highlight here um and I
think like there's there's this part of
what type of data is interacted and what
is the right approach to secure privacy
um and it could be for example we don't
want to interact with um criminals or to
have exposure to T funds or that for
example our insurances would know like
um what we have genetic
um yeah how you say like more likelihood
that we get like a certain um deathly um
uh disease but there's also more like
the surveillance St type of data that
many people have in mind so um yeah yeah
I think we operate in a little bit of a
tricky place because we started well
blockchain ethos kind of started as
privacy preserving um that quickly went
away when you know uh you had um all the
these tools that are coming in where you
can follow the history of all the
different wallets and what they do on
chain and how they connect to each other
and you've seen you know um authorities
get using that data to to ban certain
activity or to ban certain wallets I'm
not saying that's a bad thing I'm just
saying the truth is everything's on
chain everything is available and tools
like Dune are making that data even more
digestible um so we have to think
about I think we're at Crossroads we
have to think about how we use data and
how because the truth is companies
organizations are always want going to
want to know more about their users
because they want to grow because they
want to maximize profits because
whatever reason it is they are going to
want to know more and they're going to
leverage this onchain data is it okay is
it okay that we're able to track a whole
transaction history and base our product
on this is it okay that we're able to
connect a wallet to an identity because
someone's doxed it or put that
information on chain online sorry um and
is it also you know what what kind of
product tracking are we putting in place
that's not on chain that's like
proprietary data and we need to think
about how we do that as well um are we
always gdpr compliant you know are we
when we match the data we collect
offchain to some data that we might
collect onchain are we doing it in a way
that is um privacy preserving for our
users and most importantly are our users
totally aware of what you know they're
they're signing in the tnc's it's what
you were saying earlier um and and what
they're giving away for for the
usability of of the product I think that
would be relevant in permission setups
right but if you have permission less
setups maybe like um yeah being
compliant to a current already outdated
gdpr um directive is maybe maybe not
like what you should orientate um
yourself about so let
think about a second example that would
be um the uh transfer rules for
financial institutions where basically
for every crypto transactions and we
don't have that in the Fiat system a
financial institution would have to
store like the or collect the data of
the sender the recipients their
identification the source of funds or
whatsoever it's like like a very poor
requirement and technologies that they
um have been um adopting where we
already have like really impactful
Solutions in the crypto space that could
protect also users um that haven't been
anticipated yet or Technologies in gdpr
and um
yeah
awesome let's see
so I think that web 2 has and the
internet in general has proven that
people are not that concerned about
their PR privacy um For Better or Worse
that but I do think counter to that uh
we're given a lot of data and a lot of
information um sometimes it feels like
uh you know it can be a blessing or a
curse I think sometimes we have a hard
time finding the signal in that data um
which can be a real challenge something
we're working on um but I think it's not
so I don't think we need to make
decisions for people I just think we
need to communicate clearly you know
what is it that you're giving what is it
that you're getting um for example you
know like uh I'm not transactional when
it comes to my friends or my family or
my community but if I'm engaging with
you know a government if I'm paying
taxes or if I'm you know getting a
subscription with a company like I want
to know like what am I giving and what
am I getting and I think we just we be
as clear as possible about that and the
design and the product and let people
make decisions for themselves and
obviously there will be a parallel you
know government uh conversation I assume
someone's handling uh you know
compliance uh that's you know they
usually tell
us so yeah so I I want to have uh one
last round of like a lightning round of
questions so if you had a magic W and
you could ask for any feature as a user
in web 3 what would that
be okay connecting to my most recent
painful experience I would like to have
like um an account that um abstract the
gas fees and allows me for multi-chain
interactions when I for example want to
do a multi-chain um briding of funds and
trades or yeah um having pool assets
from different chains for example
something from the poka environment
where this is not uh where it's even
more painful than
ethereum watch it
uh so at the moment um we're working on
uh integrating AI more into kind of the
data analyst workflow at Dune and uh
unexpectedly I found that really
powerful personally um I'm relatively
new to the space you know trying to
learn SQL um but being able to kind of
have this conversation uh it's really
like an education you can see the div on
the on the left and the right um and so
I think I think more of that um uh right
now we had this kind of past year of um
you know an explosion of AI but like
using it uh like intelligently like
where people already are I think is uh
could be a lot of fun could be really
useful um probably wishful thinking but
I like one place where I can interact
with all crypto web 3 stuff like all my
balances in one place being able to use
all my funds and and one place that I
trust and I I can self custody my funds
in a secure
way I I agree as well I think as we
mature as a user and Industry I think we
converge to having Simplicity uh
essentially um with that we are a minute
over time that concludes our panel uh
thank you to Romina Austin and Alice uh
thanks for sharing all the information
really thanks
everyone thanks we have Q&A I think
yeah that was
an that was an amazing panel thank you
everyone please don't forget to scan the
QR code so you can write your questions
uh in the in the app so we can follow up
with with some questions for uh the
panel here so please we have we are
going to have a minute to have that so
please because we ran out of microphones
so we need to do it from from here so
please please go
ahead we have plenty of time for
questions so please go ahead with a QR
code
it's see awkward silence uh no I think
there are no questions people have
already left and theidea next ones are
waiting for do do we have one question
is it yeah there is a
question maybe we can pass microphone
that's more user friendly it has to be
through
technology okay maybe we have to go to
that person with
mhone you can come ask your question on
on stage you want to yell out your
question thanks
for okay thank you so um I want to ask
about that uh U you state that um
sometime we uh when we talk to user um
we should Define the thing that user
does not know what he really want for so
how to track uh the thing that uh uh the
user does not really know
about uh when you develop a product and
uh I have another question uh that is
that true that um the first step when
you uh develop your product is to uh uh
to ask your customer or we need to find
uh some prior step for maybe for example
to uh uh analyzing the market or
something something like that so that's
own of my uh two
question I I think the the first
question summary if correct me if I'm
wrong it's more about like how do we
know what the user actually know uh says
what they want versus what they actually
need right how do we get to the the need
verus the rather than what they are
asking asking for essentially if I'm
corre if if it's yeah yeah the the
unhelpful answer is it depends but I
think if if you have to pick like a
particular Playbook um you know start
with a hypothesis or a particular
question that you want to answer um dig
into the quantitative data if you have
it and even if you haven't started a
project yet you know it's a lot of data
onchain like you can probably go out
there and find some signal um and then
uh try to understand what's happening
and then follow up you know with maybe
build something and get some feedback or
if you feel like you really need to
discover you know you can go you can
follow up and go talk to people and and
try to follow answer that question
essentially but you you might have some
um no that's a good good point I I maybe
just adding on this if you are actually
talking to a user if they are making a
feature request then that's probably a
signal that that's already too narrow
and too precise like try to understand
why do they need that feature and then
you might agree that that feature is
indeed what responds to their need or
you might disagree and think that
another feature or a different the
feature built in a slightly different
way might respond to their need
better yeah yeah maybe to make it more
um yeah clear with a specific example so
um this multi-chain um feature um
multichain trading right like I had to
write for every step of my trade it was
just actually just wanted to leave a
position it was Stables versus like a
certain token and for every little step
of onchain interaction I had to write a
support request but my actual go goal
was to just like Swap usdc and a token
from a different chain and it had like
10 steps involved that I couldn't
navigate through because there was no
help text also on on that
website yeah I think it's just nailing
down on that is uh getting to the root
cause and not focusing on the symptom is
like why are they trying to do something
and uh you know really drill them to the
point that they actually disclose the
problem they're trying to solve not the
feature that they're trying to use
essentially uh I didn't quite catch your
second question but perhaps we can uh
catch uh after and maybe discuss that
all right there's one for you Austin we
have we have one question we have
someone with the microphone wait waiting
and after your question we'll go with
the questions here in the screen uh well
actually my uh it's not that I had a
question and I lost the momentum but I
had a comment about the pause uh between
you asking us for a question and silence
so I scann this code it asked me to uh
enter some wallet I click the button it
asked me to do something I'm like no I'm
not that interested in this one so uh
yeah and uh actually I have answer to
the question that was asked because I
I'm always triggered as a person
responsible for a product I'm always
triggered with the quote from Henry Ford
about if I asked people uh what they
need they will tell me uh they need a
faster horse uh the answer to this one
is simple you do not ask people what
they want you ask people what problems
they have what what they do on daily
basis and then it's your job to figure
out the way to for them uh to solve
their problems and then you present some
prototype to them if it sticks you did
your job well so yeah thank you okay
thank
you thank you thank
you so we have three questions here so
to what extent will AI impact the role
of designers in the
future oh Hot Topic um I mean I'm
personally excited about it I mean we're
we're on on this ride uh so like you
might as well enjoy the ride
um and you know anecdotally i' I've um
I've seen it be really powerful like
there's a ton of things that we're doing
as designers which is really um tedious
and and you know Annoying um and and I
think in the short term um you know like
if it's integrated into workflows
intelligently um I haven't seen this in
design yet
uh very effectively you know figma
launched a bunch of AI features recently
and it hasn't really been sticky in my
workflow like maybe I need to be more
aggressive about you know changing my
habits just like learning shortcuts you
kind of have to brute force your way
into like new habits when it comes to
something you do you know 10 hours a day
um but yeah so far it's it's a
playground uh I see it as an opportunity
um I haven't aside from you know the
classic just chat chat GPD a
conversation partner to to explore
topics and ideas um actually that's been
really powerful just to be like hey I
need an icon for this like give me 10
ideas you know like because a lot of
times you have to create choices before
you make choices as a designer but
unfortunately often it's just you
staring at your screen um and so to have
like that brainstorming partner at least
at the moment I mean that's been the
main way it's affecting my workflow for
now um in a positive way and yeah I'd
say like it's happening we're long for
the ride I I'm I'm generally optimistic
about it
awesome we have time for one more
question from what is written here I'm
trying to choose the right one and we
have one more
here okay sorry uh I was trying to put a
new line and it actually posted the
question uh uh my question is like when
you are trying to develop a B2B
application and other uh uh the party
the business is not working in a web
three space uh how what is the best way
to onboard such uh business users so
maybe I can give an example where um the
solution would basically combine two
different chains um so for example
friend of mine has developed um AI
agents for uh web to users or you know
like from that World um and basically
the approach was to combine um a near
based approach so where it's basically
abstracting a bit Orit more
designed for web 2 users in mind and
then basically there was like a bridge
in or basically interactions with
ethereum or evm compatibility so um
navigating ethereum was actually not so
relevant everything that this B2 be web
2 user was um experiences was
experiencing was pretty much like the
same ux as you would have in the web 2
logic so there are many solutions to
different
problems awesome thank you so much
please give a great Applause to this
panel
today appreciate it