[Applause]
the doors hello is
yeah actually all right
hi everyone Pamela's called long chain
at the wall there's the subtitle on it I
don't remember we'd all spend a lot of
time together actually so this is like
we just do this all the time anyway so
somehow there's just a bunch of people
in the room with us Anthony has like
formal questions and stuff so yeah so
I'm going to talk about watching the law
and
a lot of times
[Music]
I started out my legal career working
BFF the Nagini fighting the good fight
litigating a she's a first impression
internet lost so issues that courts
never seen before different technologies
for you and then I worked for big law
firms in cases for big tech companies
before I discovered watching and Bitcoin
mint lemon and I was tracking years and
then now run this wonderful community of
Palo which all these panelists are
members and some of you guys for the
audience we are a community of
like-minded legal experts academics
researchers economist technologists the
little shebang and you get together at
workshops and conferences across work
rooms trying to solve deeply troubling
issues that are common to us all
works kinds of tools and how to develop
policy and culture
hi my name is reka ugly primarily what I
do is a mechanism designer in the
blockchain space so I have clients and I
help them to build projects are runs
into the lines so that they actually you
really do fill the promise of equality
and technology and safety guarantees
that the users expect in that capacity I
often times also have to make sure that
the project is in some sense at least
remotely peoplee compliant so I spend a
lot of time discussing with you know
various borders in various places how do
we structure these things and mount on
follow the law and so I actually really
prior to that I was in Kuala and I still
have in Kuala yeah the present tense
um but yeah so so I'm mostly in Kuala
I'm the non lawyer that most of the time
so I'm helping people to understand the
technology side the material side in
particular and model independent my name
is Sarah fight I'm the general counsel
like what secret are you safe protection
market protocols also my roads main is
really made our products dispute
assistance prior to turning nurses I
went to protect and financial regulatory
compliance also international
arbitration my visa situation stab me so
be our oyster
[Music]
and this is some strategy but I
originally came to know that Republic
from working on a small cooperative
which I set up like articles of
association or and tried to do
distributed cooperative in 2014
and that community came to be an advisor
and actually a member of the insurance
and it's very database and they should
be done we're just kind of in throwback
now but I think that's why I came to
know you guys so looking at a kind of
model of too centralized stewardship on
a human level of decentralized protocols
and we eat the basket so my background
is more in kind of writing and research
practice rather than law specifically
look at it so you know we have an
outline probably want to keep it
entirely mysteries but it will be
someone but these veggies is sort of
provide an introduction to what we think
about salient legal questions in the
blogging space which you may not be what
you think are solutions and then we can
sort of suss that out at the end but
yeah let's start I mean anyone can sort
of response to the question what is a
big ality and so in in the sort of the
blockchain space or talk about extra
legal or unstoppable applications and
oftentimes there's a evil undertone or
legal subtext to those statements that
is actually predicated in this concept
of legality and it would be entirely
unclear to hold a person or even some
cases of the legal background oh what
that means or how that applies so so
what we mean by a legality is we're not
talking about things that are illegal
per se ie already defined you know by
specific law or regulation we're not
talking about things that are
illegals illegalities is what we refer
to as things that exist currently
outside of the view of the law today so
when we think about unstoppable code we
often think Oh what we're really talking
about is the blockchain reality and
there is a lot in reality but we forget
that there's also a physical legal
reality so people participating in that
code the development of the code people
participating in the project all of whom
have a legal and physical presence in
the real world
and so what we when we talk about
illegality we are really trying to
figure out how do we make this
blockchain reality correspond and deal
with this physical real reality legal
reality real legal reality that exists
for many of us who work in this case I
think oh hey you gotta see is very easy
to cross a few justice would refer to
the order to just order them oh I'm
ordered and we're basically in the space
and I think in the lone I mean right now
there's a lot of regulation and
happening so the unordered space
becoming that's an orange so it's more
ordered or disordered depending
where we study do you want to expand a
bit on which one's ordered with one's
unordered which ones disordered so from
a regulatory perspective from the
regulation anything that doesn't comply
with the new overarching of overreaching
regulation in several countries would be
disparate and the unordered our a legal
space becomes smaller and smaller but
that is up to debate so might have a
different of the nervous that's where
the benefit of the audience is it not
sure if there's in reality is as long as
there's human interaction there's a set
of even with you know kind of like
police regulations
what's the ground by which we operate
together as whatever human interaction
right so if I take a very common law
approach I think about there's there's
laws but there's also principles there's
a constitutional right that's around the
legality of all the subsequent laws that
are enacted by Congress
so there's a there's a pecking word but
you start in the US legal culture we
start with that we can Constitution
which is a piece of literature as
opposed to English Constitution under
but it's a sin of those founding
principles and on top of that we have
lost cosmic congress and then on top of
that we have regulations that are by
unfortunately that interpret right so
recently lots of log kind of falls that
subspaces talk about things in a very
concrete way as people know we're all
scared of the sec world scared of
enforcement actions right so they're
operating that lumber and be kind of
wanted people gap or were these ground
includes apples that make that thank you
justification for these subsequent
regulations applause so I think you know
Dells opportunity to think that
relational aspects of human eruption and
propose just a way of executing
there's birds
always we are always very to governments
and so but that's why sometimes we say a
legalities something that is not ordered
but sometimes we find order committed
from legal systems coming from there
from the private parties so it doesn't
mean that we are not ordered if it is
outside the legal system or that they
are no rules at all there are now this
chain organizations these new systems
they are self-organizing
and trying to impose these or to create
these new system that is parallel and
it's outside of traditional just just
one quick follow-up you know in terms of
this kind of unordered space eventually
that one ordered space becomes order
there are forces that shaped the way
laws form it's slow but when it moves it
moves
particular arc and without you know new
kinds of projects and new kinds of
thinking and innovation and what happens
is that the kinds of forces that shape
the political economy which lead to the
loss that we then see later on are going
to be in place so these are large table
there's incumbents entire systems you
know people that four main sources so
when we say people often think oh if
there isn't a particular law or a
quarter long chain that means the law
doesn't apply there are many areas of
law that already apply that yet to be
imposed as an ordering on the space and
yet it will be ordered and and what we
are really interested in as a community
is how do we shape that ordering and
that can be done through building new
projects changing the market forces
changing our collective culture and what
everyone believes will work or won't
work so all of these things are equally
important
as we look at whether laws do not exist
that apply to us today through Maria
like you had privately ordered space
media trying to order ourselves at that
order or my country was ordered by
regulation but ordered by our stomach
that is sanctioned by the state so as
long as they they have he was working
during as long as we could in
self-regulation
they don't interfere but if it were not
what we do a mitten does effect I mean
laws does come into the flight of a bird
we might get into a conflict for the
public space by statement so I think
what we want to discuss here today also
is what can you actually order privately
what can you not order finally
so I just want to also bring it back I
feel like there's a common conception in
the space that a legality and once
translates to a kind of autonomous
legality and if it was early on a
misconception based on the term smart
contracts that there is some type of
contract laws on how it vetted and how
these technical senses particles run
when it actually is not once one gotcha
so I think a lot of what you said about
shaping the relational space where you
have these principles and laws not
always necessarily an external appeal so
you were the baby
not necessary on attained off change but
if you kind of externally appeal to
outside the community here like an
extrajudicial force like what are the
points of this contact so if you order
yourself directly privately you can also
strategically choose like what are the
points of contact when the to secret
court of law when you do see questions
of liability and other questions a lot
in large part concern about
responsibility
so I think that's a very good point and
a good sort of transition I'm just going
to quickly say I think the process that
the blockchain can is experiencing now
is you exist as a legal framework with
like unawareness right means like your
ignorance of the law you people don't
know what the laws are they understand
the wall works and they also
coincidentally planned an especially
interesting thing about the divorce
Romania the hope some of us have landed
very much squarely in the a medieval
space where some of us have planned it
very squarely in the illegal space for
the same reason right you just you
didn't you weren't aware of the law you
weren't paying attention whatever and
you just were doing your thing and some
people thought the thing was going to be
cool and they were really wrong and so
we are as a community going through this
process of ordering space and
formalizing as a community what we're
doing and the real risk is as a
community if we start to again out of
ignorance create ordering that is in
conflict with the law right because
what's going to happen is we're going to
have a set of community norms that we
won't believe are true and valid and
evil again because people make fall
outside of the government but we will
informed a set of laws that are in
conflict with the laws that we all
operate under put it in a very concrete
term it's great that we know this
conference here and we're not like a
biker gang right like a biker games have
their own law they operate
literally call themselves alcohols and
have a law of averages and go to outlaw
parties and like you know these parties
are fun there's a lot of benefits and
not being an outlaw party you know pros
and cons right and so I think for most
of us here in the blockchain space we're
trying to align our ordering process
with this other legal ordering process
and so apropos of that I've been asked
the next the next question and it's
prompt which i think is something that
oftentimes comes up in space and and
also is a touches back to some of these
other conversation about contracts and
misuse of use of terms you know why
can't we just make smart contracts
between us and call it a day right like
why is it that we can't um just have
like these sort of weird computer
mediated bilateral agreements that are
you know interesting and unique in their
own right but like why aren't these new
forms of private agreements sufficient
to protect our activity again as we sort
of move through this unordered space
into an order of space why isn't it
sufficient or just you know three people
in this room to get together at the
throat you know throws
computer and why isn't that like a
sufficient protection and starting at
our hospital basically the what I
earlier spoke to spoke about is that
information to business we are fine
during private ordering as long as we
don't violate the public with all the
through law administered so that's what
we have to talk about and the moment you
do that you might not because here's
this there's a train of thought in the
space that everything can be quantified
but smart content is really just
enforcement piece
the totality of attract relationship
which include sound opponent like is
there a meeting of the minds so there's
this conflation that says the execution
of some function with the enforcement of
oscillation is also the evidence of
tensions when in fact we have an outcome
but the whole dispute between two people
is whether or not that is the correct
outcome that accords with the
expectations of attorneys
so that's necessarily if it's something
that falls outside of the scope of the
code write the code evidentiary or
contentious prettier but it's not by
itself that's totality of that of that
relationship but what's the difference
under the contract contract also
contains many other provisions and
there's also other activities that that
can evidentiary rules right
and so and I think that what we're
really talking about there that depends
between insert lay terms the difference
between a smart contract and a written
contract a paper contract is that when
you go through the process of signing up
a paper contract you've demonstrated
some meeting of the minds already right
and you've demonstrated that in some
relationship to the greater of all like
people don't say oh I sign this bowl it
does happen actually where you have very
ignorant people and they're like I sign
this contract when I got some ice cream
and then you're like okay well obviously
that like failed to meet the
qualifications of a legal contract and I
think that what we have the blockchain
Space Flight the concept of a legal
contract and in light the concept of
people agreement sort of just wished
away the walls relationship you don't
need every contract and sometimes people
just send a guy with the ice cream it
happens all the time
I know see a difference of that I don't
think the difference is in the sort of
formal structure right the difference is
he you know quite literally the minds of
the people in the agreement right when
we talk about people of this community
making smart contracts with our
contracting systems they are not well
some of them are the person who's like
oh I got some ice cream so I'd like to
this token or whatever but a lot of the
people really do our turning construct
their intent is to create something that
exists but they're necessary but I said
that
that feels a lot different and I am
signed a contract for our employment or
producing ones and it's also tenser very
shortly one more reason why I think that
the gallery and probably is not
mentioned is something is hanging out
with you guys I know there isn't
necessarily the law there absolutely
like a lot of laws and there isn't this
sort of like that kind of locking
protocol there a lot of technical
disagreements about protocol upgrades so
it's not laughing the motivated me that
also makes it very difficult to catch
the two up
I'm so talk about international law
given jurisdictions
two concrete examples you know they're
people for watching lots of people are
participating you never would have the
best of intentions all the sudden you
have an assassination contract it's
launched on a net and you thought you
guys were just a group of people or you
thought you were just contributing to a
code for a particular project and all of
a sudden the law sweeps in and apart
from this blockchain reality and all the
agreements you mean that then Dini of a
general partner in a general partnership
and liable for all the acts of
everybody's participated so this is
where it's really there's there's a
visible legal reality with states nation
states that have these supports that
operate on your projects even if you
can't see
that us as I miss us
and be encoded as my conscience we saw
that message
our format like humans so there are
subjective constraints that are needed
and that are impossible to qualified so
- but I was talking before about
self-governance and how we could create
these rules in a way to you that they
are problem with God is that whenever
the design is beautiful and supple it -
to decide what is according to those
rules or not is very subjective and so
that's why I just as much
one of the solutions that
worse with humans who decided what was
if certain action within our
organizations to those we can
and the doctors a perfect example of
that
you know the attacker actually said
or if the code is really long I followed
the ball and thank you for all the money
and actually the community decided that
was not the outcome that they wanted
they wanted to
Gold is blockchains for contract reality
so you know there's there's like human
labor just as he said that that we need
to take into account as we build this
infrastructure that's ultimately meant
to and just briefly I think it's
interesting to note in the case of
withou the reason the code wasn't ball
was because you know the you know
ultimately the issue that arose was not
from the author of the contract that was
exploited right the underlying issue was
a mismatch between two parts of the
stack below what that developer wrote
and you can sort of get into this I mean
I think that you know how much of a soft
word anymore this is really fascinating
philosophical discussion around
programming languages and why would we
ever want to use a language where it's
such a problem and emerge right but here
we are in reality where we have those
languages and there's there's no way
that you can legitimate the argue well
okay there's conspiracy theories that
are somewhat extreme but outside of
those it's very clear that the intent of
the original publishers of the dow was
not to have the doll hack happen right
so we can all look at that and agree i
mean again the vast majority of the
obviously not everyone but the vast
majority of people can look at
okay well the code that should be law is
the code that actually like the person
who wrote the code had an intent and
that intent was clear in effect there
was a bug an underlying food
what obfuscated that intent and eight
years having that sort of level of
complexity in your discussion about code
is law like if your code is that
sophisticated which is actually like the
vast majority of code the dollar wasn't
a particularly sophisticated piece of
software so if we can't express simple
things like the Dow and its unambiguous
terms then we're going to be stuck
having humans try to mediate to resolve
these issues in one form or another
whether that's through like an Aragon
sort of module or through something else
Billy do you want to remember your
question later and you can come back to
it thank you
one thing I wanted to say to that is the
dart team could actually have made this
a bigger contract it could have set up a
contract saying code is law and maybe
this legal system is a choice of law is
England and Wales something else and
then you know you should have had
something kind of a backup so if you one
code code is law you can set up a
contract to actually state down all you
need that in addition
you need to have a legal system that
catches all the other things that you
have missed out on it yeah so I think
for this community
they're the reason people don't do that
and again if you're not a lawyer that
just seems like especially in America oh
I don't know maybe lawyer I mean
hopefully lawyers are expensive
everywhere but you know just the shorter
the distinct Curtis like we only with
the countries where laws expensive have
you know hopefully laws expensive
everywhere and it's not only the expense
that provides people inside me but it's
like you're opening up this whole new
world
your basic because I mean this is so I
think one of the things that it's easy
to misunderstand if you're a layperson
which is you know just because you don't
know what the law is doesn't mean that
you're not subject to the law you can't
like plead ignorance to the law you can
say oh I brought group I drove over this
person collected knows and legal right
and so on the scene being your
suggestion is a perfectly reasonable
suggestion as a lawyer which is I should
provide myself some legal protection by
these like writing something down and
notarizing it but for other people they
feel that that's like opening Pandora's
Box that's inviting them all into their
situation of making it worse not making
it better
I knew that I mean that's literally why
we're here on this panel sort of
dissuade people from that line of
reasoning and if you wanna ticket stay
away from any legal jurisdiction if you
choose as your distributor solution
arbitration you could also actually not
take it to territorial jurisdiction as
your choice of law you can actually
change rules of law
so if the eastern community with one
you know like everyone right now scream
something like that you could actually
put that in there because most
arbitration clause or international
arbitration laws and now we're able to
do that so different rates on the legal
system ourself and refer to it in our
contracts in our district resolution
mechanism but we haven't done that far I
mean we could do that I think it was a
great idea great idea and we are
actually working on this just on the
arbitration New Jersey yeah so you
cannot so I work about ten years of
international arbitration and petty
officer so we have a bit of a dispute on
this question and my position one that
says you cannot have a finite mandatory
laws of Amina not his conscience I mean
this is like torture or he cannot any
human rights that are enshrined in
international law but on the substantive
level is not just procedural you can
actually come up with your own words or
not but we cannot miss an example for
the non-lawyers about what some of these
rules that you can make up which it
would be like one cent I think that
that's the best way the concepts how you
give a concept in UK concept can be also
I say hey it's good absolu it yes I'm
actually not as American idea is is if
you could say for example signature
partners you're if you could say that
the transaction the signature is the
signature on that under your contract
and then you wouldn't need to follow
jurisdictional signature requirements
and that would from something people you
can very much adapt it to your own legal
system you choose as for example I mean
we worked on initializing the textile
but we realized I mean isn't this system
of rules we have that is being developed
so it's because the existence so we had
to look at interesting shouldn't get it
had to take a choice of law of the
jurisdiction zone you need interesting
sure that has very that allows you to do
this so it doesn't function in our
restaurants yeah okay
doesn't punch a non-jurisdictional sort
of cut you off though that's why they're
so we do have an agenda yeah Billy
you're so close I'm gonna try
[Music]
I was going to talk about the
misinterpretation of code is law from
the non blockchain perspective of sort
of the interpretation of law if it was
to be interpreted as it was intended
originally you know this is a big sort
of debate in the Supreme Court in
America and how else are like code is
law and traditional law could be about
really interpreting the actual English
here anything that night and where that
stands are how is that text opposed and
today's current law climate yeah so we
have long Guardians about this because
technically I think I mean I guess
there's a and this both in koala broadly
go from all over the world right and so
there's all different laws I mean this
panel coincidentally is mostly I think
US law but maybe not I mean I don't know
what the split is and I can't count
apparently but but yeah I mean there's
definitely yeah so there's definitely I
think a question around like in the u.s.
context versus European context common
law context context that's okay
technically in that previous statement
the UK is not part of the EU but yeah I
think that there is minimal the lawyers
actually answered
I don't know who wants to want the
answer of other lawyers so you know I
don't know how many of you guys are
familiar with Johnsbury Barlow's
declaration of independence in
cyberspace so this was you know what the
internet was new and offices open free
space free from nation-states and men
and unfair enforcement mechanisms where
we all learn and live and playing
together on this wonderful world wide
web and you know if you read it it's
it's beautiful but it almost seems
quaint today because eventually we
realized that these networks that we
created still were operated by people
businesses who live in this little
economy and shaped by the markets shaped
by legal forces shaped by culture shaped
by norms and that's how we see the
Internet today which is very much not an
independence sphere of cyberspace so
when we say Buddhist law you know and
we're kind of drawing on this very long
tradition of technologists or people who
are innovating at the edge of new
technologies who think that may have
somehow create an escape to law and
created a space where they make their
own
and you know there's again there's
there's a lot of split between different
restrictions about how you know you know
and operationalize that literally what
that means in terms
but in the broadest sense that we've
been approaching this question is is it
enough to make private agreements in
technology or do we need to take the law
all the laws and politics and the
culture that come with the building of
laws into
anyone else title comments
you know we don't we're skipping that so
what we're going to do we put a single
everyone sanity is imagine these two
right next to each other are you in that
length about common law and civil law
and for all of you so we're skipping
that so that's when though this question
Billy would have an alternate reality I
pass them the mic because argue about it
no one wants to hear any other so okay
we're not we're not doing that
but this is an apropos the next question
which is you know do we need to reform
the law to do do these are legal reforms
necessary for the community to achieve
as desired goals I think it's probably
the most insane way of putting that I
need that time yeah does do we need
legal reform to accomplish the
community's goals
I think we are just discarding we are
justified as persons we have actually in
a listener
of organizations native as much contact
native organizations we are just
starting to have those people are just
excited to work we use different tools
and I think we I really believe that
these new rules are going to come from
this private sector first I always put
this example of the exchange Expo it was
initially called coffee house in the
18th century and that became what it is
today the next change and so I really
regret that these initial rules are
going to come from us this initial
system even hours of this coffee house
were like private clubs in 18th century
and the government they wanted to
recognize those and they were not
enforcing them so if people they
organized
they were enforcing those rules and
that's how easy the uses of asthma and
some private private governance is
effective and I think it's going to be
necessary now
I think I disagree are we going to
achieve as a community today writing
different zeros probably not but I think
we Robin the idea what people reform
means and how do we shape the way the
law is going to work now in the future I
think we have enormous space
a lot of areas of government such areas
but you know we talk a lot about
regulatory capture and market capture
and these as we move from this unordered
space into an order of space if we don't
take a proactive approach to figuring
out how do we make our processes sound
how do we meet the kinds of goals that
we all agree on you know protecting
consumers in freedom to contract you
know promoting innovation and creativity
making sure from a lot to activities are
conducted under networks if we can't
come up with ways and means using the
infrastructure that we have to deal with
these problems the what will happen is
as we move into this unordered into an
ordered space the forces that always
shape the way that
entropy toward centralization the the
forces that are that are powerful today
will continue to share that in the
future and we'll see what happens with
the internet happening to to crypto and
you're already seeing it with zebra and
other so really need to figure out you
know how do we as community build Road
rules today while we still have space
and capacity to do that as the law
starts
I think that's really correct and also
what I see is one of the opportunities
as an Aquarian and I think locked in is
the only example of them but I think
normally when we kind of choose terms of
service or interactive software we feel
like we're contract
but in a case of more distributed
systems you're kind of contracting with
other things so and non-legal terms like
that relational aspect of reorienting
now interact with software to be more
about kind of entering into agreement
with a network of several different
parties and have common responsibilities
because whatever there's the tension
point a lot of our conversations is how
do you manage liability and
responsibility and pseudonymity and that
seems to be the kind of core tension of
how to be introduced to a normal refined
legal space like preserving the ability
to interact strongly and while
interacting responsibly and that's one
of the major points for me
and yeah it's just a sort of at the the
sorry that we've actually but I mean you
know we're also when you talk about you
know anonymity and providing you know
maintaining some sort of privacy part of
that is also somewhat circularly to
avoid exposing yourself to laws that you
otherwise wouldn't be exposed to right
and and and and also it even more to
take that a step further
you know not all walls are just right we
don't all you know we all have our own
sense of justice our own sense of
morality and own sense of ethics and
maybe I think it's hectic all too maybe
everyone I know that the goal for me to
do so many legal thing in some other
country and in order for me to do that I
need to protect my identity right to
stop those people who are coming after
me or you know of harming the current
common phrase and I'm correct
have you and so there I think there's a
benefit when you're constantly thinking
about like assassination markets and
like kidnapping children and child porn
and all this stuff but that same
protection can work to actually create
like a more just and ethical environment
and especially about stuff like you
know Aragon but you know the it's a lot
of people to have an agreement that is
more just than what they could actually
get within a legal framework right and
that's that's actually sort of the red
ring for Y and DHS potentially engage in
this process assets are beer asses
whoever controls that acid the or the
vs. register assets which means they
they have to need so a lot Tripta masses
are work are bigger assets that became
as as the phonebook registered assets
meaning that they became less carries in
the sense that
economic incentive tools but instead of
seeing these certain classic books or
names who are competitive can access
that's that set of instruments we want
everyone is we have to be able to access
that and that's fundamentally opposed
with how securities law functions where
we're like you cannot be a very asset if
you are security that's just part of the
law you have to be registered there's
there are these register regulated
intermediaries that serve particular
functions so I think that's a
fundamental aspect of the law that needs
to be changed and that also goes into
corporate governance and who can
participate in the governance of
something that it doesn't quite look
like the traditional operation we're
trying to build public Commons digital
Commons will be needing incentive
mechanism that allows anyone to
participate so it could be a repeater
mode well that traditional looks like a
security that is that means they're all
these rules around a systemic so we
constantly add heads freshen up
that doesn't match and lawmakers are
these the states aren't really going to
do anything about it anytime soon so you
have regulators like the SEC trying to
figure out what's the best way to
balance the space where for them it is a
legal in the sense that they've got you
know 50 60 70 years of securities law
that says he's a security always a
security business more they think that
goes from security to non security so
they kind of have to make that up then
though they don't really have that kind
of lawmaking power and this goes back to
where does the legitimacy the logs were
so they're kind of operating in that way
yet and they're doing these for your
sonís
just trying to say okay you were early
he didn't kind of know what the law was
you're not you're doing something
innovative that might bear lots of value
so you're not going to cause more damage
by shutting you down and preventing you
from having this asset or you know you
can kind of tour to pay and that's a
cost of doing business in the space and
we'll let you go and experiment like so
there's so there's there's a real
concrete link which I think very there's
that friction and government agencies
don't actually know they're they're
actually in an a legal space where they
don't know how to
I just wanna die super quickly I really
love the idea that what could be
produced types of definitions of
financial assets we also need to close
regulation in the cows face because that
our space have more more people are
entering that the ecosystem they do not
know most people do not know what to
think liabilities are attached to that
one example a lot of people do not think
about it for example if you get a grant
from a Dow and the Dow there's the
tower's anonymous you do not know where
the money actually comes from you might
be implicating yourself in like
terrorist financing activities just by
taking the money so organizations that
you know come you know if you have a
company then you get money from from
itaú in strict sense you would have to
ask yourself well am I sure that this
money is not coming from some terrorist
organization or some organization that
is in the eyes of some big government
considered to be terrorists or AML
related if you do that and keep up with
where the place then you basically mind
implications no one ever thinks about
that and there
other questions like that and because of
that that needs to be a protection for
the developers for the people actually
in this race and we have the ones who
have to propose it we are the ones have
to propose as well to recognize it
because if we don't do it they have
other to respond so you have an
opportunity here where the architecture
of the law did not fit this new kind of
architecture and there we tend to be a
long mystical process how to develop how
to how to make these things a consistent
and in here we have the same problem we
have laws that are based in Geographics
real owners of jurisdictions that
that there are centralized
organizational structures of the board
identified participants so you have laws
that are all framed around this
particular plumbing and then you have
this technology that is labeling all
sorts of different things people from
all over the world to participate on
projects and scale who then who still
nevertheless live in some yummies
addictions so so so right now there's a
lot of belief that this can be a game
changer and that means entities and
organizations like agencies like the FCC
are are taking a wait-and-see approach
and taking these careful selective
one-off steps to try to figure out how
to deal with this because they actually
don't know how so in a lot of people in
the earliest cases I worked on in my
career was the YouTube icon case he was
an open question whether YouTube could
exist and it was a negotiation of powers
between the content creator between the
copyright holders which are these large
organizations you know and entities in
Hollywood who had regulators politicians
who largely get their money's worth
water views what a reputation you had
then also the fact that YouTube already
existed with billions of users which was
also a market for us and then we also
had the narrative of what we want to
protect whose rights are at stake
do we want to promote creativity with
this particular law you know stifle or
promote creativity or protect copyright
holder
so right now we are in the same space
where the things that were built
the rules that were making amongst
ourselves the products that we're
building the values that we put behind
those products are all going to have an
impact on how law is reformed and how
long it's being reformed today these are
only either all things that we begin to
wrap up the rest of our time with
questions answers I don't know two
people should probably try to walk up
here because you're on the wire might to
ask their questions or you know I guess
or be very loud - and almost any new
thing that gets created whether it's
huge Aquarians in the air some twenty
winner is about honesty like Chiclets so
I was like people
or the engineering side of the Builder
sighs how should we like to think about
that how should we think about sort of
tension between like if you want to have
innovation of course you know you're
gonna end up not fitting in existing
frameworks and and on a theorem we've
seen specifically
so
[Music]
always
right and help you navigate this quarter
so you know you know very well be at
least about at least that you don't end
up in here as long as you are protected
that way I think that some lawyers can
help you and I'm not saying we have any
legal but you know it's it's really
difficult it's it's the legal world is
the world they don't know you're
building something
you wanted out so what do you do legal
advice is very expensive or what does
one do i what would be really great to
see is have the community come together
because these are issues that are
actually common to everybody how do we
solve this problem of maintaining
responsibility while enabling these
features that this technology so special
and something
and you know and one of these things is
right now the regulator's don't do we
have what to do can we come up as a
community with sound practices that deal
with the things that we that they and we
care about how to deal with this
technology responsibly how to have
transparent processes so that there is
an element or due process and informed
participation these are rules that we
can all meet together across projects
today and that's okay so there's four oh
all right conference main questions bro
okay you're nuts
my question goes back to some of the
comments ever the lawyers made about
getting out in front of the debate as
influencing eight people so if they come
and get us because I'm old enough to
remember the Declaration of Independence
of cyberspace the first time you know
very Giants of flesh and steel and all
of that but the basic ideas leave us
alone
but we've done they would leave us alone
and we ended up with some bad laws the
first time etc etc so my question is
it's one thing to talk about you know
come up with our own self-regulation our
own processes but what specifically do
you guys think could be done influenced
hit use what okay let's say you know
defining the debate governments
regulators
[Music]
it's really interesting this self right
much more a question and I'm always
skeptical about what people's interests
are so you might have seen in the less I
think paper so something called encrypt
era meters which is a from this
collaborative all the big blocking guys
where they promote the new big banks and
invasive and you cover little like they
decided that they were just going to
great people we like you're a secure
you're not security but if you're
security you won't know is your show up
on this thing and there's no disclosure
of the conference of interest there's no
transparency around the methodology but
at the same time than these are folks
with deep connections to Washington
right so one basis but you see there's
all these like just this intrigue of
folks and we've seen also two hundred
recent settlements but they asked to see
that actually look very favorable he was
kind of stopped by the rest
it's just across the food business
cheaper to do an IPO site site
coin-sized funds they also got a 3d and
I think light settlement but basically
their therapy their security totally
doesn't have it register so that's great
it's really it's actually maybe open as
well so there's there's something
happening where I feel what it is that's
going on behind the scenes right we're
just people but there's something
happening there are powers that and that
are trying to negotiate some things but
is it also very interests of what do I
think you only waited to is to keep your
head down and don't up just just
nation that that were some people's that
good there's actual adoption in this
case outside up they're traitors and
being a toy but make things that
actually matter for people this is why
we're building this new set of tools and
that's that's the only way right that's
the only way to make the case
yeah we're not gonna be able to get to
all these questions one yeah you
proposed dealing with the clash between
the public's public policy objective of
national security and anti-crime
national crime and on the other hand its
civil liberties case for privacy and
confidentiality that seems to be one of
the biggest problems in the world
upcoming years I think so how do you
propose doing that from the ground up as
seems to be the well I mean for me I
have a different story about the stuff
of mentality like like you know I don't
think that the blockchain technology we
have today is in any way inhibiting law
enforcement it's certainly not more so
than the cryptography in isolation right
like if you just said okay cryptography
is this as a as math in the universe
right criminals have access to math and
they can figure out how to encrypt
things and that capability is going to
be there I don't think that developing
blockchain technology broadly speaking
facilitates crime in the in this little
bit pedantic but the law is a bit
pedantic right me good that's the nature
of playing the legal game I don't you
know when
Mexico the Mexican drug cartel was
kidnapping telco workers to force them
to build a radio network so that they
could directly communicate each other to
ship drugs no one pulled voter roll up
into a corner and said what are you
doing making these radio chips right
they said oh yeah HSBC is for an example
right I think that there's a legitimate
understandable anxiety around this
question but there's so many examples
where if you weren't just being a
criminal no one misses you needed crying
to you and I think in our community
that's something that people out to come
to terms with it's like we have to
separate out the criminal activity from
the non criminal activity and then this
conversation becomes much easier to have
you know with emerging technologies
the speed on that where we are at
encryption is exactly but you know there
is an opportunity for us to do some
really interesting things with this
technology that brings that will binary
lays you're either you know if you have
privacy you know you're gonna cut it
against national security in order to
have robust national security you know
you you have to you know somehow give
some civil liberties and someone said
right to privacy and this zero-sum maybe
can be broken because technology enables
different things maybe what we could do
is have decentralized identity networks
that you seek ApS that allow people to
have a token which doesn't share all
your information and yet still allows
people some some companies or
organizations or towels to check the
exact list against their participants
make sure they're not obvious the name
of the terrorist so that's one example
one of the things that were able to
answer
question as well one of the things that
were working on in Kuala is remaining a
doubt model law so what this involves is
looking at what are the goals behind the
means the mechanisms that traditional
legal frameworks require so it usually
you know if you want to have legal
standing capacity to sue or be sued to
actually legally ordered an asset that's
all chain these things usually require
things like a traditional identification
but behind those meetings there are some
goals the policymakers are trying to
achieve and what we're doing as a
mapping exercise it's figuring out what
one of these goals can be met through
technological guarantees what what can
we claim is a functional equivalent to
this rule because actually I can't even
follow those means anymore they don't
exist sometimes mates and then to create
from there still an alternative people
framework that meets these public policy
goals and with koala
we have this wonderful benefit of having
incredible minds from diverse
backgrounds contributing to this project
and also a very large academic network
that gives tests to the fact that what
we're doing is really a neutral
fact-based analysis from how we think
the world should go forward and then you
know as we build this legitimacy and the
chorus of voices - then socialize back
with other stakeholders because people
are you know they're very interested in
listening this is an opportunity that we
this is something new
[Music]
with it we have an opportunity to fill
that vacuum with things that we can come
up with
oh and just the other workshop on Friday
9:00 to 10:30
[Music]
perfect this was the next question yeah
I truly was related to talk a bit about
like being proactive the you know
helping you know enforce regulations or
being effective our dispensary I was
wondering if there was me like large
community effort to you know I have this
conversation and kind of like something
that can be quite answer so the question
is are there any community young woman
created in these days
it's also a new one in that farts
International Association of trusted
blockchain applications they're just old
this summer and close to us on what I've
seen a lot of my legacy institutions
such as bank banks the institution's big
corporates who have a very different
agenda we have so just trying to get a
point across responsible we have many
many from this ecosystem it's difficult
because they they're dangerous very much
cash so I think what we have to do as
Mexico gather the people who are
interested in this driving this overage
within you know these this community and
not with the corporates I mean you have
to talk to them and we have to find
common ground on we first need to know
what
do we know how much time Jimmy loves
balloons I mean you get your best thing
going for 20 minutes if you do you good
stuff any time but I'm just saying you
know about a minute if you need I mean
these are more questions there's four
more questions I'll just go front to
back so you could share some example
breakthroughs and blockchain of
observation like specific example or
today through love and are starting to
allow for more innovation or innovation
that efficient so it seems that at the
moment it's always smaller states their
smallest example I had done that I
actually come up with new solutions to
help the pocket chain space this is not
necessarily a good solutions but they
are solutions and what happens is you
basically for example you have in the
towers ratio of Malta they are in the
process of clearing your personality to
work house I do not necessarily agree
with how I did it because what they do
is like their make turn now into what is
not like just a corporate entity other
jurisdictions Switzerland has been very
active in facilitating the crypto
community and especially in relation to
securities laws sometimes many because
smaller states they in fact in a way the
bigger states and hopefully they're
infected with the right disease another
wrong one other land Germany and other
good examples of jurisdictions that's
related that and it's now also we should
mention Gibraltar very early in
- regulatory framework which was
principal his principal based so it's
based on principle what you know it's
technologically agnostic respect wide so
they can just you know they can kind of
innovate within those very principles
but it might even also the ticket of
Gibraltar they are overreaching on am
now because they trying even to have two
supplies pencils are to follow their
laws which some people in the community
supports all of a sudden but for us I
think the goal would be to approach a
smaller jurisdiction we write you know
we draft something we think is good like
something based on technology and other
inventions and have that implemented in
the smaller state and then hope that he
catches on because that was the same way
with too many LSU is romantic in Wyoming
and I win wasn't even really known for
its corporate laws but then you know
Delaware took it and then it went all
around the world and that's how you get
more sprite
like for builders we're trying to
release the boundaries of observations
which are quite hard I believe obviously
I try to advise every time this quite
wisely and also sometimes not practical
by that cause there's a lot of lawyers
that we don't like what about you to do
it's like we can never tell you what to
do and really go away so so I guess I'm
as we work for like personal like he's
like nothing like legal advice bugs out
of your personal vices like what would
be like there's like yes and yes it's an
example of like use for example is just
operating and discuss why it's okay like
I mean like waiting for million
the overkill in sometimes or you can
select recommend to like blue
jurisdiction to some smaller regions and
replaceable or like do things
anonymously is there anything for
sometimes you might have
I would suggest anything
if you have the money you should get
in-house fired as in Oz Meyer can tell
you much more give you much more
frightening advice because as an
American law firm as a lawyer they
basically hedge their risks so they
don't give you they want either legal
opinion which has hundreds of
assumptions and it's based on this based
on this then you can maybe do this but
this is you know it depends so if you
have the money you should always have an
in-house lawyer who can assess the risks
and also depends always you know it's a
basic spectrum if you want to just keep
out of jail you know like how much would
be one attack and a lawyer will then
advise you what the right approach is
and if you cannot afford a lawyer or
like not in the house I think as you
spoke about jurisdictions have been
forum shopping for your company is a
very good idea and they are some group
very crypto friendly regular
jurisdictions where it's much better to
have your company than others and also
also jurisdictions that are not
expensive but there are some limitations
on and I mean maybe don't live in the
USA there's something called Walmart
jurisdiction in the US has a very very
long research so it's not it's not
enough but you're not giving us
or somehow because if you are targeting
us persons that you are quiet right and
the only way to find out inclusively
that you're not targeting us persons is
to do TYC for everybody because you're
blocking it's not sufficient easy so so
unfortunately there's there's a there
are all these issues around cache sorts
of regulations I want to say something
about that
if you can't really tell you know who
all became I see blocking the new Asus
really unfortunate but it's a very the
reason why us the most part is probably
legal reasons and it deer barking is
still like kind of it's not a food
defense but it's tearing is a defense
must times petition saying us persons
are not allowed to participate it's not
a long-term solution but that's what
projects right now is out and it's one
of the best risky approaches in this
place okay you know like CODIS are
but kind of effect that out I think one
of you was saying that maybe the Dow
could have specified that like code is
in law or code is law or we're gonna go
under the state of Delaware with
jurisdiction does any of that even
really matter because I'll honestly like
him you had the sort of nebulous we of
the Imperium community that ultimately
decided what to do so they get any of
these networks isn't like the real legal
jurisdiction the decentralized network
actually over I spent a lot of time
talking to lawyers and something that
they charge you a lot of money for and
they say very often is it depends so I
mean my personal view is that as it has
a developer as someone helps teams work
with teams to build technical solutions
i I think that again I'm not a lawyer
and um you know not all of a sudden
pound you know only a minority of us
about lawyers the lawyers want you know
their business is to sell my business so
people technical advice and so I I'm all
under the same sort of I guess moral
hazards that lawyers fall under because
their job is to sell you legal advice
and so I immediately like see it you
know oh that guy is totally like track
this conversation offer another 15
minutes for no reason and you can just
keep it under dollars right and you know
sue so do these protections help I mean
they do help and is in a particular
abstract frame right but in your
particular instance
particular case you have to have the
sort of sophistication the savvy as a
person participating in this business or
whatever you want to call it community
to to make that decision for yourself
like ultimately your lawyers you know to
be frank I'm almost certainly not going
to go to jail and you know it's your
it's your own you know you know do your
own research you have to protect
yourself I don't think that it's so I
guess I was inadvertently completely
skipped a part of your question no I do
not think it is the blockchain community
that ultimately makes the decision I
think it's the people with guns will
chase after you kick on your door that
are old
I don't know I would also say that I
would love to see an initiative from
this community because lawyers and that
mr. Lee incentivize to get people active
advice not to see some sort of
initiative come out of the community to
finance and find that ethical space
apply positive people advice how people
should have protections around that it's
a long ask but I think that's but that's
what I see about the kind of it doesn't
that's very question for myself and I
see that there is like a vacuum and that
real need for this for it does the other
issue there's the law which you're
saying you can have all these legal kind
of complete things in place but then a
bunch of people decided to do something
anyway now is that legitimate and
perhaps some of the framing is a way of
creating or disproving the legitimacy so
someone could potentially sue so I mean
I imagine part of but animated the
decision to go and give him his money
back as well this is the awkward Moe
thing to do to get people's money that
was based on the expectations that
people wouldn't just willy willy nilly
lose their money to do so a bug coat
that wasn't their power to be entrusted
that to the developers to do that's
infallibly
right thing to do in order to facilitate
and keep experiment voting right
business it's about that trust between
us right commit to maybe others thought
that that was an illegitimate nap like
who are you to come in and do this first
to the coast so it's so those are you
those are the questions that lead to
fundamentals if you just use a lot of
different ways to to buttress your
position right so someone could have
seen that's not legitimate based on this
set of rules that we had a long and
enduring according a whole body of law
because they were under this corporate
we were making an analogy now to these
cases and so what they're where they
have legitimacy and the remedy is X if
someone else can make a different
argument so it's the law can be used as
tools that allow people so there are
tools to make to put hurdles and nice to
see you guys again so what you do us to
minimize the risk I think your questions
always how do I minimize the risk
I put hurdles in place I put a choice of
law in my agreements I put terms of the
conditions and it becomes then harder to
see you and to get you places and the
this is the final question of that yeah
maybe to us organization just thinking
about the district regulation
I think I can walk it extends to people
and the negative side effect that
doesn't first cost of history Athens
must have been
the Great Depression had a lot of
financial regulation commands to come
prevent them and my question is what are
the negative externalities that the
blocking space gets rising and can
actively regulate instances we have to
wait for the mistakes to happen
and they make retroactive regulation
that's really interesting question
unfortunately we're in the back of the
room yeah I was really
that's been interesting I'm going to let
the lawyers respond basically wait for
the massive mistake that happened the
Great Depression or whatever you could
argue that you already happened with the
the ico boom one you know the companies
that were not fast the inventor who
invested all the money so I mean the
protection of the consumers in that
respect you could maybe not correct
Ehrman economics the canonic times you
could call that X makes technology which
direct the negative seek to regulate and
we only see it it's all about consumer
protection and money laundering
anti-money laundering concerns mainly
and you know we managed to get rid of
those externalities in the space
privately myself
is keen to regulate but unfortunately
was deceived already they had that been
you know follow and fall outs of that
and that well is why we are now in this
position having this pain yeah so I
think the blogging community above all
is far too large to sort of do as you're
describing I think that there is
absolutely no a subset of people who are
interested in doing exactly what you're
describing and there are people that
promise panel people that talk to you
that because of course people that feel
this way they don't talk to but you know
the idea I think the Dalit you know the
the Dow bust cycle that we see on all
crypto assets the natural volatility
what I was sort of interpreting when you
were first speaking was more of you know
what happens when you have to go to the
ethereum blockchain to like access some
controversial video recording of Trump
right I mean that to me is like a really
like possible situation that we're in
and then and then how would we as a
community respond to that or you know
you can be particularly troll if I can
say every block I you know I put this
data on all these blog chains here's how
you access this horrible video or
whatever and and you know and do it in
this troilus way whether
sort of large incentive for Trump to go
observe and try to stop it right and you
just sort of push the question to the
floor I feel like that's the kind of
event that were not as a community
prepare for like it's that sort of
situation I think you know fraud and
sort of more conventional crime drug
dealing even like gun running
international crimes that stuff I think
we can sort of handle as a community
because you know you have the outlaws
and the people who are trying to operate
within the law but these sort of you
know we live in this new political I
mean I think for you know I grew up in
the eighties maybe I was a kid or
whatever but the political climate that
we're in now it seems like there's this
real political risk that we have with
technology that even was the Clipper
Chip and then these other things like
the stakes weren't really the same it
seems like the stakes have really
changed and I don't think that there's
much we can do about about those types
of problems
thirty Turks are preventative or puffle
active regulation and said also called
its own negative mister ality so you've
seen with kyc of elements and and just
with you know the whole likes you likes
me what it's actually pushing at us who
gets to access Capital Markets way so
part of it at the labels are our place
is to protect investors who are somehow
less think this to here or less able to
absorb losses because they just don't
have as much money great but the metals
having opportunities to access
especially in an economic scenario today
where wages are stagnant and most wealth
creation is now through calculation so
if you start preventing ordinary people
from accessing account appreciating
opportunities then they kind of stay
poor sorry
[Applause]