many different roads to go down hyper
ledger is working of course with
enterprise and we have gems can speak a
little bit to blockchain agnosticism and
Justin of course to east to in the
general aetherium roadmap but I'll give
everybody a moment to introduce
themselves beginning with Brian okay i'm
brian behlendorf i'm executive director
of hyper ledger which is a project
embedded inside the Linux Foundation
which has been around for about 16 years
and we're all about trying to fear on
how do you make open source projects
that deal with plumbing with
infrastructure sustainable by building
not only communities of developers
around it but communities of
corporations that realize enough value
just enough value that they realize they
need to feedback in and make this kind
of flywheel go whether it's operating
systems or cloud computing or blockchain
technology and it's kind of where high
pressure comes from ok my name is James
Prestwich I'm a co-founder at Summa we
work on cross chain interoperability
particularly between aetherium Bitcoin
and other chains that weren't designed
for this typically we're trying to hack
in interoperability where it wasn't
meant to go I'm Justin Drake research I
determine foundation I mostly focus on
the theorem 2.0 all layers of the design
and one of these is the like client and
how friendly we are to others - ok so to
kick things off a little bit of I think
it is important to understand where
everybody is looking into the near
future to then figure out what needs to
be done for us to work a little more
closely together at least to communicate
with one another so to Brian to educate
folks here who may be more familiar with
youth to but less familiar with a where
hyper ledger is headed can you chat
about the grand vision so four years ago
alright aetherium was still kind of a
road map a plan it was before the ICO
Bitcoin had arguably taken off and been
interesting and enterprises were
starting to pay attention to it but had
a lot of concerns right partly the
regulatory bit partly proof-of-work
partly like this sense of where is this
technology coming from and so a lot of
us it sounded very familiar right it
sounded a little bit
like 1998 when the term open source' was
kind of defined and but but even like
the years before that we're projects
that were built by communities of
developers working together actually is
how we got the internet it's how we got
SMTP and DNS and HTTP and those kinds of
things and so I the Linux Foundation had
started to hear from different parties
both big corporations but also companies
like block stream and even consensus and
others that there was something
interesting here's something very vital
something that builds upon history a
history of distributed systems that goes
back a couple of decades right but had a
fresh take on it and it was worth trying
to figure out where can we meet up
between enterprises that have problems
not so much with programmable money
partly with decentralization you know
this moved to the cloud and a move to
kind of two or three providers is great
if you're a shareholder into one of
those two or three but kind of lousy for
every other enterprise right so so where
could we meet that up and really it was
started with that idea and a bunch of
the companies that came together kind of
pooled some projects they had been
working on some code from IBM that they
had called initially internally open
blockchain and then we was called fabric
code from Intel that was kind of an R&D
platform called sawtooth and code from
some other places like digital asset and
it was kind of like let's put this in a
pot let's actually because everyone's
concerned about tokens and anti cos and
things like that let's kind of distance
ourselves a bit from it not from
tokenization as an approach to kind of
doing digital assets but from the proof
of work kind of it and from kind of the
speculative financial instrument kind of
bit of it and let's just see are there
other use cases to apply this to from
the way that that banks send payments to
each other to supply chain traceability
to all sorts of things and so that
initial body of code didn't include
anything in the etherion space but when
I joined in May of 2016 the project was
kind of launched 2015 may of 2016 one of
my first trips abroad was to DEFCON 2 in
Shanghai and I've been following the
etherion space I actually a
vitalik in motion when they did the
roadshow for the original ICO and I was
like there's something important here
there's something urgent here and
there's certainly this kind of
enthusiasm from the community that I
hadn't seen since the early days of the
web so I always felt like we needed to
have some sort of relations some sort of
bridge
and and while we built up this ecosystem
around fabric and around sawtooth and
saw that start to get used in production
systems I realized what we were also
doing was educating the market educating
the enterprise world on what really
blockchain technology could be right
even if we were having them take these
kind of baby steps forward into just
building a partially distributed systems
some sort of minimum viable
centralization right was was kind of
built into all these networks now fabric
is in a lot of different places right
but it was still very clear that we
couldn't we couldn't just be about
fabric we couldn't just be about one
technology one core it had to be about a
family of technologies and so now in
2019 the kind of vision around hyper
ledger is can we be that that ground
that explores that entire spectrum from
permission to permission list blockchain
technology whether it's down in the
weeds at the protocol layer at the at
the government you know how do you forge
these DL T's - what are the different
smart contract engines there - the Crypt
Dog cryptography layers kryptos
cryptography - all the way up to end
user interfaces - the Explorers - the
kind of apps and those sorts of things
and really focusing on how do we get all
the enterprises in the world to adopt
this and take this for granted the way
that all of you take plumbing for
granted you know that you turn the
spigot and you get hot water right and
that's a multi-pronged effort that's
going to evolve a lot of things now
though we have a lot of new firepower
from this community on our side with a
hyper ledger Daisy project which started
just over a month ago
another project called Avalon that
builds off of the trusted computing work
from Enterprise aetherium Alliance and
and it's really exciting and I think
that for the next year our focus had
Piper Ledger's going to be in kind of
hybridizing and synthesizing all these
different pieces we brought together to
take advantage of all the really smart
people and all the really smart
architectures that have been poured into
this body of code gotcha
thank you very much so - Justin a bit of
a brief overview serenity has been
something that everybody's been waiting
for since the
the names were sort of released with our
tests not Olympic than frontier
homestead metropolis and surrounding
it's changed forms many times but now we
are just months away from phase zero the
design framework is very clear could you
speak a little bit to what the grand
vision looks like both for permission
lists for scalability privacy-preserving
elements phase 2 and beyond a little bit
about serenity is an overview for those
who are who may not be as familiar okay
I guess in the context of
interoperability the the big thing that
we the big thing in serenity is shouting
right and here is the idea that you have
multiple block chains and they're kind
of homogeneous and so the idea is to try
and even though we have this a
synchronous communication between the
various charts for scalability this
we're trying to minimize the cost by
having these these fast cross links
between them that share all the crypto
shell and networking and share consensus
yeah I mean the other part and in terms
of interrupt interoperability for for if
to is you know to be a very good player
in the ecosystem arguably if one is not
friendly to enter polity like our proof
of work is it's kind of hard to to be
verified on another blockchains and
we've we've made all sorts of research
to one make the cost from a bandwidth
perspective as small as possible but
also the computational cost as small as
possible and one of the and that's one
of the things that's unlocked for proof
of stake which is the other big
component of serenity and just in just
to summarize how our strategy here is
basically to to use committees so we
have this large number of validators
let's say a million validators we have
an honesty assumption we assume for
example that two thirds are honest or
one half honest we sample using
randomness a much smaller committee and
then we ask this committee
okay can you attest to where the affirm
system is at right now and so it
suffices for another block
to just verify this at the stations and
one of the the big tools that we're
using here is BLS aggregation and so if
every ancestor is signing to the same
message you have this really nice
aggregation which makes verifying these
as a stations extremely cheap so we're
at a point now where running and if to
light clients is probably cheaper it's
cheaper than running a Bitcoin client
judgment ok so now I'm going to kick -
James we see this kind of rounding out
right so hyper ledger began as a Brian
said minimally viable centralized nature
were spread out over the spectrum to
sort of see what works with eath - we
have the grand vision but of course
still having a large ecosystem creating
some subset of standards that work
together regardless of where they're
implemented can you speak a bit to the
work that's been done that you've worked
on through both Summa ideas and
Development Research is taking place
through TUSD and so on and so forth
sorry TBT see so you know we're hyper
ledger kind of explores the trade-off
space and hasn't decided you know where
it fits it's trying to serve as many
purposes as possible and help other
people go east to is trying to build
this homogenous and unified ecosystem
Summa rather than trying to make every
chain the same rather than trying to
explore as much of the trade-off space
as possible we're trying to take all of
the chains that exist that have users
today and turn them into a unified
heterogeneous ecosystem so take Bitcoin
and aetherium and cosmos and ensure that
those can all interoperate together and
provide tools to private chains like
hyper ledger projects to interoperate
with public chains efficiently so we're
kind of at a slightly different point in
the trade-off space than if - we're
trying to be everywhere take everything
that's different and bring it in so that
it can all work together I'm gonna
follow I'm sorry go Jessica just pull up
here this this kind
a spectrum of friction and variance so
there's like a single chain where
basically the friction is kind of
synchronous you know cross contract
communication that's the low as bare as
you entry but still still there is some
friction and this is why we have
standards like ELC 20 and then kind of
the next layer of friction is
homogeneous shouting and then the next
layer of friction is if you think for
example of polka dots where they have a
unified unification that the consensus
layer but they have non-homogeneous
Peres chains yes and then the next step
is things like by cosmos and Summa so
this is actually a great transition here
the public projects have become to have
have began to over time emulate each
other a little bit more and I think that
this is somewhat true as well for some
of the hydrologic projects I don't
believe it was intended
they've just seemed to have found the
same design framework as having
generally represented a correct answer
in some sense
have you seen you mentioned one large
coming project in the space cosmos as
well polka dot cosmos somebody spoke
backstage to work that I which Kay has
done also in a similar area and of
course east to z through is now working
within a framework of homogeneous rather
than the heterogeneous but still the
same approach so I shall run back to
Brian with this so to sort of round it
out what our enterprise is looking for
in obviously looking back to the base
question of why not use a server there
are certain things that black chains
offer right and a lot of that is the
openness the permission lessness it's
just doing it with the same level of the
same feature set the same capability
throughput what our enterprise is
looking for specifically that
permissionless systems haven't offered
and do they see answers in these design
frameworks so Joe actually was your
just before our session talking about
his view that you know the world will
have lots of different Ledger's some of
them very public facing and some of them
fairly private amongst collections of
organizations right and and that's for a
number of reasons some of them technical
some of them kind of business oriented
the one the the answer the the technical
reasons may fade over time I mean right
now I'd say there's an advantage to
permission villagers which actually can
be public facing for example the
sovereign foundation is using hyper
ledger indeed to build a public facing
but permissioned blockchain ledger
around digital identity right and
there's all sorts of things in India
that are highly tuned to the pairwise
identifier approach that they take that
from everything from the consensus
mechanism to the data structure on disk
to to everything but uh but so there's
some performance characteristics that
perhaps they have to architecture
perhaps other architectures that arrived
close the gap on some of those from
performance and and and other kind of
points of view but I think there's still
going to be some business constraints so
for example being able to say that all
the nodes on this network agree to be
bound by GDP are right or agree to be
bound by saying hey we're going to put
text on this network that for the
purpose of efficiency we're going to
begin crypt minimally and if you try to
decrypt it or you try to discover some
data that you're not supposed to have
access to then there's a legal
constraint that kind of constrains you
it that you assign a contract and agree
I'm not going to divulge this data right
or or other types of business
arrangements that are actually better to
express in human contract form between
the parties around some common kind of a
kind of governance entity than then
through purely through smart contract
mechanisms again those might fade away
as some of the ability to manage
confidential data and things get better
and better on the public Ledger's but
but there's a there's a spectrum here
there's trade-offs and I think we are
going to see this heterogeneous world of
public of unpermitted and permissioned
of public facing and private facing
blockchains you're kind of two
independent dimensions for for the
indefinite teacher I don't know that
that ever converges on one so a question
for both James and Justin - James first
interoperability with private chains or
permission chains is it is it
functionally viable is it
ooh a road or are there constraints
there you know typically the way
interoperability works is that we have
one chain checking the consensus process
of another so when you want to have
aetherium inspect Bitcoin transactions
you have to actually import Bitcoin
headers into a smart contract so
obviously we can do that within a
private chain validate a public change
consensus that's like trivially easy to
do the other way around we can't really
do with any sort of security for a
permission chain the consensus mechanism
is usually a federation of signers that
can do whatever they want and so
validating that on a public chain has
essentially the same security model as
an Oracle is we're importing you know
information about this chain but we're
just trusting the signers to do it so
this may be useful in some cases but I
would suspect that we see it as a
one-way road most of the time ok I have
the following for Justin was sort of
similar I don't know if it's a solution
in any sense but I've heard the idea
kicked around a little bit of using
execution environments to in this is far
off in the future I understand and that
research is nowhere near done but it
there was an idea and if you could speak
to a little bit about it maybe slotting
those in for some of these larger you
know permission pieces I think it was a
fatality mentioned in a panel not that
long ago the use of it I guess the
question is about use of potential use
of execution environments to help bridge
that gap and he could you speak again I
guess first to execution environments
themselves so those who are less
familiar with them and to about their
potential capability right so execution
environments are kind of a layer of
abstraction which allows anyone to kind
of graft the business logic on top of
the consensus but in a much more
low-level way than a small contractor so
you can even like think of it as
programming your own VM and you don't
have the overhead of the VM as a
starting point and I guess this could be
helpful in the context of private change
that
have a roadmap to become more and more
public over time
and as you mentioned maybe these private
changes they don't want to have to deal
with tokens and have to deal with you
know permission security in the
permissionless model and instead they
just want to reuse an existing working
secure blockchain and so one model here
would be to just drop drop their
existing consensus that they've tested
in the private world and then drop it in
to an execution engine or we could also
drop it in as a you know polkadot parrot
chain that would kind of be a similar
thing but regardless having some
universal standard or at least one that
is used widely seems to offer great deal
benefits over time you have ideas on
things that might fit into a decent
standard stack we spoke about briefly
hope I'm not pre-empting you know just
commentary in the future but could you I
guess outline a little bit some of which
we spoke about not too long ago about
what fits into that stack those pieces
being worked on now elements of member
linds elements are standard I mean if
you've got a slot in to an execution
engine or going to slot in as a pocket
or pair chain then you want to try and
express your consensus in wasum because
that's what these two systems will be
doing and it will also be helpful if you
express you know the application layer
itself and whatever because you know it
will all be one one system I mean if you
want to do something more ambitious and
have your your own blockchain your own
consensus then it is helpful to try and
converge on the blockchain standards
that are emerging at a lower level so at
the networking level at the
cryptographic level so for example at
the cryptographic level you could use
sha-256 for hashing pl/sql 381 for
signatures that's a great starting point
from networking you can consider the PGP
as a great starting point
if you if that's part of your more
ambitious roadmap go ahead just on the
subject of using execution environments
for permission systems I think Brian
made a really interesting distinction
between public facing and private facing
and as an additional access to public
and private or permission and on
permission thanks so using an execution
environment to creative permissioned but
public facing system might be useful
it gives public verifiability without
necessarily public participation right
and if you if you want to be public but
also have privacy is another dimension
then you need to start getting fancy
with zero-knowledge personally so I'm
gonna come back to Brian for something a
little more macro but related so the
innovation and this might be something
you disagree with some extent but a lot
of the innovation is taking place in the
public space especially I mean all of
this was born out of the open source you
know this of it and it changes quickly
right so we could speak to the research
being done by EF researchers or around
the etherium space to IBC or so on and
so forth I guess the question that I
would ask is what what specifically are
some of the member organizations
interested in and and what could
potentially be done to help connect them
with those that may be building toward
that future for example and a couple of
quick examples would it be they're
interested in privacy preserving
elements like ZK roll-up so that they
could protect their customer and
consumer information while offering
something on a public network with that
level of security would they be
interested in funding research or
lending developers what are they
interested in how can they drive
or making a reality so in technology
movements there's kind of a boom bust
cycle of ideas that get tried and that
eventually as a space mature as things
kind of whittle down right into here's
the here's the the architectures the
concepts that actually seem to provide
the most value for the least amount of
lines of code at least amount of
complexity right and I would argue in
2016 we didn't know what those are
I'd say argue in 2019 we still haven't
figured out what that final set is right
and so I innovation can't just be about
hey we've come up with a new idea it
should be about like how do we
systematically try to map the solution
space give those who are passionate
about these different ideas the free
reign to kind of build their own kind of
roadmaps decide which parts that problem
they want to tackle first which ones
they're happy to say here's a one dot oh
right here's something that now I'm
comfortable you use with you using my
software completely without my
involvement to track digital assets like
that's like a big kind of like sort
threshold right but let's try a number
of these experiments let's allow Darwin
to kind of play allow I you know those
that succeed to keep iterating and going
for it forward but the real question is
how do we make sure to make sure that
good ideas that are embedded inside of
the projects that don't achieve that
kind of critical mass don't just get
lost or don't get I you know kind of
just dismissed because they haven't had
the wrong brand on them the wrong
license the wrong set of characters
around them how do we use that as mulch
for the other projects that do continue
to go forward and move on
which was at least our rationale inside
of hyper ledger for having this kind of
greenhouse metaphor for these different
projects right and some of them have
turned out very well like hyper ledger
indie which again hyper focused on
identity has been able to let go and not
have to bother with upgrading the entire
world every time they want to try to
invent some new topic or throw away an
experiment that they did that didn't
actually turn out well right and other
projects like hyper ledger quilt which
has been our implementation of the ILP
standard which just kind of failed to
get anybody excited about it right I I
mean I'm following closely stuff going
on that at IBC and with cosmos and that
sort of thing I think that's great but a
that was experiment we tried and it's
still alive you can all go check it out
still and use it but uh it's you have to
be able to like be willing to take these
experiments and wrists and I see our
role as being very much about provide
that space allow people to evolve but
put these projects kind of on a conveyor
belt to a one dot o release and
eventually something that conservative
organizations you know who don't like to
upgrade every month who don't want to
necessarily worry about a hard court
forcing them to have to upgrade systems
right tomorrow right or even at a
pre-planned time six months in advance
like they want to be a little bit more
in control of the rate of change on
their networks right how do we get them
comfortable with the idea of using this
technology when it's appropriate when
it's not appropriate right and kind of
provide training wheels for these
organizations so they can eventually get
caught up to the more forward-leaning
organizations like those of you who got
you I'm gonna kick the justin the coming
off of this there are I've heard some
talk of large larger organizations in
the public space that are replicating
efforts whether it be research Lapita be
waz and research so coming off of what
Brian's spoken about and flipping the
question on its head there's to some
extent a million developers aside limit
on mine share of those that are able to
develop at the core of the core right
what would you find beneficial from
let's say both enterprises and other
public blockchain ecosystems in regard
to interoperability or collaboration
collaborative efforts to help both be
able to produce what they're looking for
and to avoid replication of efforts
right so I mean after this panel I have
a whole talk on collaboration
and you know there's there's many things
we can do we can you know at we can try
and focus on low level components which
are very modular things that are
designed to be reused we can try and you
know at at the legal level try and avoid
things like bad licenses even bad
open-source licenses
we can try and avoid patents can try and
avoid things like trademarks and ndas we
can also you know be open from the
get-go you know at the risk of being a
bit more chaotic and messy try and open
up your doors so that we can all learn
from mister from the mistakes because
some teams what they do is that they
spend two years working on something and
then H they ship something perfect but
it's it's a lose-lose because they could
have gone through gotten feedback
earlier on and we could have learned
from their failed experiments it's
interesting thought
so James on that note there are specific
projects that enterprises have given to
the public blockchain space that are
open source taking nightfalls an example
do you see them as they are beneficial
and we think them for their work I'm
sure are there elements of that that I
guess we could be there we could work
with more closely together to make sure
that they're beneficial to the space so
they have upside downside I definitely
think so
so nightfall is an interesting example
because it's a cryptographic system and
it's very difficult for non
cryptographers to interact with or to
understand how to reuse components of
but I think as far as like the IBM
blockchain and the door blockchain and
all of these huge enterprise blockchain
processes we haven't seen a lot of
useful code fall out of it we have
people like the if you enterprise
aetherium Alliance etherium enterprise
alliance ETA whatever it's called
working with enterprises trying to serve
their needs and ensure that they give
back to the community but I can't think
of you know any enterprise driven
applications on chains that I've
actually used so IBM has like 40
full-time engineers really using every
line of code that they
fabric as soon as they write it okay so
that's great yeah and and they're about
40 percent of the total IP going into
fabric so there's another big you know -
yeah bundle of people outside in other
companies why wait Deloitte others that
go into that work - so perfect so I want
to catch up with you about I could do a
better job yeah so digging back into
technical interoperability the work
that's being done on the public side I
guess will speak to first
Justin's outlined a few of them a few
others have been brought up on stage
like IBC work privacy-preserving
elements so I'd first like to kick to
Justin to hear a little bit about what
those leading areas may be and I'm going
to then come back to Brian and figure
out our different standards similar
standards being worked on in the
enterprise space and how can they begin
to share that work or even its being
open source apparently it's not being
communicated to the best possible you
know and of course comes in blockchain
and I know it's a limited number of
people so leading areas of potential
technical interoperable focus what are
we looking at as of now I mean one trend
that I'm particularly excited and is
leading the way forward in terms of like
plans and interoperability is a seller
and coder so they're they're going down
the snog based like clients and they're
bringing in a very sophisticated
machinery
you know recursive stocks one is like
the fully recursive in the case of coda
and then the case of seller is like one
level of recursion and I think this is
great in you know in terms of you know
minimizing the cost of interoperability
because at the end of the day you know
when you have a very flexible virtual
machine like wasn't then you know in
theory you can be Ally clients for any
other you know blockchain but in
practice the limiting factor is just
cost and by cost I mean the you know the
gas cost in time
action keys and so there really is a big
engineering effort to be done to squeeze
that cost down to almost nothing
and and these projects are leaving that
another kind of interesting consequence
potentially of the the snarks approach
is that it could be kind of a common
language for all the various light
clients to speak because every
blockchain has a different consensus and
so every time you breathe or bridge
between two block chains that's like a
custom ad-hoc build bridge which
requires a lot of sophistication but
maybe if we can you know encode these
these algorithms and you know in
circuits and then abstract away all the
complexity and the stock that might be
one way to to move forward and a
quickness or James going I want to push
back a little bit on snarks is like a
interoperability mechanism the main
thing that they're useful for is making
updates and expensive things to cheap
unfortunately when we're running a light
client on chain the amount of updates is
still linear in the frequency of the
reads so if there's a lot of people
reading the system your snark based
system will converge back to just
updating once per header rather than
skipping a bunch of blocks right so one
of the additional benefits of snarks is
that you can combine some of the
application layer logic and one of the
you know you could one of the
interesting pieces of application logic
which actually is kind of between
consensus and application is going to be
the miracle paths the witnesses so
generally speaking you have data on one
on one chain you
the route the light client is
responsible for moving the route over
and then the user is responsible for
moving the data and the witness and in
practice the the data is a faction of
the of the total cost in terms of data
you have the the medical paths are just
much bigger and so there's this idea of
using snarks for witness compression you
can take all the witnesses for all the
data and compress that down to 200 bytes
and then even include that in the route
update but yes I agree that if you're
going to do very frequent reads with low
granularity the the overhead of the
lifeline starts disappearing and then
you have these other overheads but they
can also be subsumed in the stock right
but we have to plan for the worst case
scenario because Sabina bunch of stars
in the one a grating starts as an
interactive off training process right
well you kind of you know in the way
that change work right now you have like
transactions in the mempool then you
have a block producer that will batch
everything and then that entity that's
already there during the batching can
also do go one step further into its
notification and compression yeah and
also or must also can in theory but in
practice must if if if the costs are too
high
I find this helpful in whether it's done
in a hallway or on stage for us to
really press each other and break things
down so - Brian it's a very similar
question leading areas of research that
you've been seeing in all different
areas of hyper Ledger's focus is some of
this beneficial that you might bring
back and how might what's being worked
on in camp be communicated back to the
public sense some degree so project
Avalon which is just launched is a
project with consensus collide Oh
Microsoft Intel i exac a couple of other
companies are here to try to look at how
do you manage and distribute I could see
if I got the bullet point right it's
coming up with like short descriptions
these projects is really hard but it's
how do you manage off chain every secure
Enclave types of resources as a way to
optimize and simplify certain
transactions that otherwise would need
to be a lot more expensive to perform
around providing confidentiality to
transactions and other types of things
so it's something that implements the
trustee compute framework definition
that the enterprise at Deering Alliance
has been working on I they there's a lot
of interesting ideas there and it's it's
still earlier days and it's still more
of a raw Rd kind of thing but you know I
also want to say a lot of what
enterprises need right now is a system
that provides immediate settlement I
with everybody being able to verify this
is the right order of transactions
implementing prevention of double spend
being able to implement a confirmation
logic in the form of smart contracts or
chain code whatever they want to call it
and through that you can solve a huge
number of kind of use cases that
otherwise require parking a central
server and having somebody run that I
and and and and this is a way you can
get rid of Swift you could get rid of a
lot of these counterparties that today
require a lot of trust
sometimes it's earned sometimes it's not
right sometimes it's just mandated and
and this is what's driving a lot of the
enterprise interest in blockchain
technology today so I kind of feel like
sometimes a lot of the really thorny
work and hard work that is being funded
by the e F and that is being worked on
by this community is going to matter
quite a bit down the road with these
Enterprise Block C networks when they
have hundreds or thousands of
participants operating exactly as peers
right when they have a lot of
sophistication a lot of hostile actors
on the networks that they have to try to
algorithmically prevent today you can
make up for a lot of that with better
with with forms of human governance that
operate at smaller scale but still
provide enough of that guarantee and
frankly enough with is still the right
to fork since everybody has a copy of
the ledger if they disagree they can go
their separate ways
and that provides enough of a check on
tyranny I will say sometimes being too
early is just as bad as being wrong I've
seen a lot of
with internet startups as well as
standards efforts that I tried to define
a world and solve problems long before
their world was ready for them in the
early 2000s there is a bunch of
standards work around Oh off and open ID
that tried to essentially say we're
gonna build a decentralized social
network here's all the building blocks
to do it and they're all relatively
finished it just turned out that
Facebook took off and everybody went to
that and there was no both no funding as
well as no momentum behind independent
implementations of all these underlying
technologies and so I think we just have
to be careful about going too far down a
rabbit hole that doesn't have enough i
end-user validation and enough momentum
to make sure that we're not solving
problems that don't actually end up
being problems by the time the world is
ready for that software okay it doesn't
we have just a couple of minutes left so
we've spoken over the last almost 40
minutes about different different
efforts in the research and for for
bringing this whole ecosystem together
whether they are on the private end on
the public and the last couple of
minutes I'm gonna ask a question that
I'm personally curious about we've seen
things again in their design framework
come much closer together over the last
few years I used to know 2015 or so what
might this look like in four years all
right
you figure we're probably there a little
bit sooner than we are so on and so
forth what does hyper Ledger's going
down the line to close what is and
hopefully if you can about 50 seconds
what does it look like in four five
years when these systems are developed
does it is it all too different from the
public space and what is the public's
basically I my hope is that there's a
handful of technologies that people can
pick up and deploy without thinking
twice but there's an API they can use
and not worried too much about what's
going on under the covers but if they
need to it's open source they can drill
in and figure out what's going on and
fix things if they need I do see us
pretty much sticking to being a place
where software gets built and leaving
standards work up to folks like EEA or
the EIP process or other groups kind of
thinking about how do you get agreement
between parties about kind of the
protocol there but when you want to come
together and simply get better leverage
on you know if
the precious time that it takes to put
software together that's that's why
working together in any open-source
community makes sense we want to keep
doing for the next four years thank you
so what does Summa look like in four
years I think that depends a lot on what
the whole ecosystem looks like in four
years at Summa we try to work on the
chains with the most impact today that
means Bitcoin in aetherium cosmos and
polka dot are up and commenting and
there's a handful of other chains that
are interesting we've started working
with private chains as well we've worked
a little bit with like quorum like just
playing around with it I'm hopeful that
within four years we'll have a better
idea of what the space looks like and
we'll be running multiple cross chain
relays and multiple ecosystems Justin
well I'm hopeful that in four years you
know we'll have figured out sustainable
interpret bility within the context of a
theorem and and a homogeneous chance but
also hopeful that we'll be you know
working very closely with components
that are fit for example in the web 3
framework so you know decentralized
storage at scale for example as a nice
complement to decentralize their
computation and data availability also
looking forward to you know interacting
with you know the most vibrant pockets
of activity it could be polka dots it
could be you know it could be Bitcoin
for example and then using for example
cosmos as bridges I'm just it's very
hard to predict the future but I'm quite
excited we go I look forward to seeing
where the vision goes maybe OpenSocial
is not dead yet thank you all for
participating and look forward to the
rest of the day thanks so much
[Applause]
you