[Applause]
good morning thank you for coming thank
you for getting up so early to attend a
breakout so so the 2.0 phase one is two
separate experience this is the agenda
today so for the first two minutes in
welcoming and is to design construction
and other minutes we have our and very
diffused into this case is out there
there are two new associates and then we
have about 30 minutes per order is one
discussion and then hopefully we'll have
a little break and then we will protein
they were thanking us
action of the is to filter experience
then 25 minutes to discuss people about
the experience of a stream and in
another 25 minutes things about parshat
sensations that most people care about
anything so this is done we have the
collateral red signals here and if it
was here and
also it to have some question that we
might not have time during the breakout
and we can also no not you and hopefully
you have time to and we encourage that
have can have more conversations and
especially this room and so on we have
two months to tell you so if you have
questions
expecially and yes we're gonna empty
some of these seats up here in front
probably education that you want to like
engage that slightly longer exchange and
feel free to buy travel visa frontier
and when you are speaking the beginning
please
yeah I always like that and so we hope
that would be fun
for God and but please and during the
day I work for status good night dream
of so just quickly about what we're
about by now maybe you are it is like my
times already hearing this another like
is to thing but the idea is that these
two will be delivered in these faces and
huge face sort of represents a little
feature sent I think a good reason for
doing it this way is because we can live
test components cook and we release like
not the whole thing at the same time but
we will start with the beacon chain and
the beacon chain you can say there is a
and in light of everything that will be
released as easy to its a single piece
of software it's a single chain and it
starts by adding two crucial features
you can say the Google State Patrol give
us security everyplace book of work and
then the randomness that sort of first
of all yet gives legitimacy to that
security and second of all perhaps is
useful if you like the other thing we're
doing is that we're kind of shooting an
arrow from his onesie so you know when
you're building a bridge over a canyon
that's what you deserve in price over
right this is the one way picking from
east ones ethos when you wanna become a
validator on these two we have this
bridge that sort of connects the two
chains in this direction so that we can
keep track of what's happening
the positive people wanted for a snake
and we're launching this so that we can
validate these things before developers
start using the chain right so it is
intended Ruby for enthusiasts and people
that want to take early we want to learn
how to run the system they want to learn
how to validate our client software it
works we want to set up the
infrastructure so that we have time to
sort of Buddhist without the pressure of
having that developers on the chain then
we'll move into phase one and Phase one
work is sort of the first time that we
had a bit of complexity to a system we
had charts
how many would say maybe 64 maybe a
thousand and it's all about starting to
prepare for execution but still not
doing it so we'll have a couple of
examples of what you could possibly do
when you have shards on on to which you
complete data and where the chain
guarantees that this data will stay
around for one
[Music]
and so if you look at how that works we
have to click in chain there is
coordinating the data chains post it on
your chain on your defender sharp chain
this gets recorded on the beacon chain
regularly and it's a way of
communication
basically so within a single shard you
already have available and then you
cross link it so that it's available on
the other strands as well in terms of
security but you could say that each
chart lives its own little life and then
finally in phase two we had the
execution engines simple or not Omega
which is different but conceptually that
is a separate piece of infrastructure
that will enable people to develop
execution engines now we had a long
conversations about like to present this
to people yesterday like one of the ways
that we came up with it is very dr.
phase one that's kind of like when you
designed a computer and and the new
computer it suddenly it is a multiple
multi-core processing unit and then
phase two is like somewhere between the
operating system and the drivers and
parlor it's still not something that we
expect everybody to do if you're that
developer you're probably not gonna
release any if you're designing a large
contract system with very moving parts
then yes maybe maybe you have like
special need for it through designing
the EVM replacement for aetherium - yeah
then you will design the me if maybe you
want integrate their knowledge groups or
let's say that we wanted to didn't
something like the cash inside of their
one that maybe they wanted irrelevant
fee for that but these are like they're
not bob's that something that you just
deployed like me like refined costly
both in terms of development and in
terms of the community change within
that little world they might offer
application development as we know it on
the third one today we'll start with two
presentations that will introduce sort
of phase one and one what you
potentially do when you have faced one
available with battery we can be just
dizzy cable and then mr. co-op and these
are two kind of scalable exclusions that
we might use on in student so
[Music]
all right so okay so the way that the
role of courts is that we have a zero
knowledge proof is that we use to
compress the state transition so the
state transition includes the signature
verification and the Markov will treat
all things because we do this inside as
they're not proof we have a northern
system cannot enter the lingual States
so if someone wants to steal money from
someone else they can't do know that
they have a policy that you think or
that's better said by saying they can't
create a zero knowledge proof unless you
have some signature so when we when we
create the zero food we have like this
inclusion point that's you have an
implicit food that everyone's an
implicit proof that the signature exists
and that Hoover has so inside the
stomach we do oh that's right - sighs
and shall we say complicated so these
are the contents
okay so did you see here this is our as
our database and something we have a
virtual business everything that we keep
on to leave the snag to update this for
commerce
no and you see in the bottom of the
chain you see these ABC and D this is
like the this is like the compass is a
separate agency and each amendment has a
fully canceled field with it as well as
about something so bu people to the
hatch of all pieces
yeah it's okay yeah so we use that to
ninjas and so this is like you have a
list of transactions here these
transactions in this red box is like
what's happening with Israel and here is
what's happening with is my contacts so
we have state one or Marco Rubio comes
in here and then we make approve that
updates it to work one yeah so we put
the put one chain as well as we yeah so
we put a bunch a but we have a problem
is like this ability from so there's
this like date availability problem that
someone updates on worker Ruth you're
not able to
so you're not able to sort of update the
system because we want to have multiple
people who are able to do say
transitions so what we do is we also
reveal at dinner yeah so the dip is
basically invited Alice and Deborah and
ever since we're talking from Alice's
ever
so if Alice has a talking to Debra we
the dip is basically the the to address
the wrong address the progress the to
address and the amount yeah and and
that's a lot to reconstruct emotion so
it turns out that this is pretty pretty
compressible because we just use the
indexes in the burger tree so this
becomes very sustained for Brenda on the
bottom so we put a snag on the under
like if between the two states
[Music]
and as professional desert without
remove the privacy yes this completely
ruins friends yeah so so we use snacks
here for there's a sickness enough yeah
so let me go through like an idea that
has its work so okay so inside this is
argue that what we do exactly is that
when we seek receive introduction we
validate the signature and then we prove
that the public key of that signature is
equal to the public key about us asleep
then we help
then we prove that Alice asleep within
the current vertical tree yeah don't we
update Alice asleep we use the same
vertical path to include that new leaf
into that to update the vocally
yeah so so what's happening here is is
we're changing one leaf in the tree how
because we use the same work of paths we
hold all the rest of the tree the same
houses leaves by removing the head but
by removing the but we reduce our
pallets that we don't they we come over
like an intermediate route and then we
have some money that's we've taken away
from Alice and you want to give it to
Deborah so we use the signature and we
look up the to leave the Invincibles
receive it and we proved that that
leaveth in the updated Merkle tree and
then we hide the money together and then
we do another work approve holding the
other merkel basically how that works
and we can also do this for like a
global state or different kind of state
transitions so instead of in the
previous example we had like Alice and
Deborah and both of them had like this
constant they both have like a personal
state but there was no any of this
global state so if you want to do
something like you would swap you need
to have a global state that people are
able to update on their certain
conditions so that's kind of that's
something else that we can do we can
come of this
almost data we can kind of store it and
okay so then we can kind of apply these
modifiers to other things yep so that's
necessary wasn't it yeah I should say
could you say in what the what Dana
you're putting on Shane fit you
you say between the two yes so it's the
venerable day that you need to
reconstruct the state and for the token
fronts for example that minimal data is
the two from the to address the problem
Edison the amount so it's the only ones
that were touching and new in the new in
that state transition yes okay yeah but
it's every time they were just so for
example if I it said to advise
intermediate versions yeah why is the
data availability guarantee of peace
wonder or face-to-face okay so what we
can do in this case is we can saw the
moment we can put all that we have all
that they don't chain that this is kind
of expensive so what we do is we put it
on change these one and as we get to
like 500 times per second and what we
have the new state the new hard work you
will be able to around 2002 elections
and or if we had our base worn because
theoretically what they say on the
sheriff and then just look at you know
almost my project
publish transfer same time one of them
will invalidate the other right so in
this case we have okay so we have like
two rolls so the question isn't that
means no this is correct what happens if
two people while there's a transaction
at the same time moving some state of
conflict
okay so inside what we have these kind
of two states we have the users and we
have this very high aggregator call them
the coordinator and coordinator receives
a bunch of transactions and they will
send them to another department wasn't
better when they put that widget so if
it was to these coordinators at the same
time it would be wasting work so we use
a single leader we use a leader that can
manifest assignment one example of what
we could do is we could do like a
mistake and rather things like them I
mean some other ideas like possibly by
the way is it possible to separate the
logic for the token transfers and the
logic that verifies the formal proofs of
the police term sir it's impossible to
move the discipline of our goal proofs
undistinguished verifications in
separate things
well you can like that could be kept may
be the signature verification is not in
the snark circuit and only the verbs are
not ever find the that the leaves are
you know leaves update the tree grow
okay this is possible but would likely
have some overhead so for example if you
did this you would have to come up with
a list okay so you verify this signature
somewhere and then you you have to have
a list of the of the correct date
renditions and apostle's to the snark
well I guess we already do that because
we pass the difference yeah so I guess
you could do that do you have like a
case where that would be yeah just in
case - if you have some complicated you
know business or whatever for the token
transfers then you know you don't have
to write that in a star circuit
instead of just regular contra budget
also you would violate this image means
that it's not going to have reduced in
transition and you would take advantage
of the snark ropes to reduce the the
data usage and have you know it's like
an EE stateless you don't have to test
you know all this Merkel group data and
stuck you you know press that all right
next up Carl
well that was a great transition one of
the one of the Casey's kind of question
can you just use a snark for the Merkel
proof and then calculate the actual
state transition somewhere else well in
fact you can in one of those places is
with a dispute game okay so I'm going to
talk about optimistic roll-up how many
people in this heat room have heard
about to mr. roll-up okay medium that's
pretty good how many people think they
understand optimistic rola okay that's a
lot fewer that's unfortunate but it's
support you actually know it's important
that thing because
this is maximum impact optimistic rola
is yet another way to scale and hiriam
it works in youth one it works in two
phase water it is one one of these
schemes where you embed a block chain
inside of etherion right and seek a
rollup the way that the way that Barry
was just talking about it you know you
can kind of think about think of it as
here is the etherium lots right because
here's our etherium and here's our
blacks and he is not chained and z
Carolla what Barry was talking about is
kind of putting these like other blocks
these he came up with these ZK are these
ZK roller blocks inside of these guys
right and building up its own chain
which has its own properties right and
so it turns out like doing this can
actually be more efficient and that is
because of one very very cool thing and
that is that the commutation is not
expanding with Morris Moore's Law I
really like this but bandwidth is so it
turns out that data availability is much
cheaper than and much more scalable than
computation so what we're doing is we're
like separating the kind of
communication message passing logic from
the actual hard like computation that
all of the nodes are doing and so this
is he can roll up ZK rolled your
building up this chain inside of this
other chain and it's really good because
you can prove upfront succinctly with
zero knowledge groups that each one of
these you know state transitions each
one of these commitments are correct
that is a very very nice property
however you don't get it for free
because zero-knowledge proofs are
currently and this doesn't
this may not be the case forever but for
the next you know five years or so we're
not going to see easy to build
general-purpose their knowledge purse
but we can still use the roll up scheme
but we can use an optimistic scheme
instead so optimistic roll up here's
what we do we say okay we're gonna put
blocks you know aetherium style blocks
inside of aetherium and we're going to
commit them but we're not going to
validate them so we're going to commit
all of the transaction data we're going
to commit you know state routes you know
it's okay if you don't know what a savor
it is but you know committing
transactions state routes all the
information you need to compute the
block you're committing it right and
you're not computing it that's a very
that's kind of a strange thing to
believe the consensus forming nodes of a
theorem are not computing it but an off
chain that's an option user as a you
know a company as someone you can
compute it and check locally whether or
not those state routes that this
computation was done correctly but
because we are doing this thing where
we're not computing it upfront it's
possible that something invalid gets
through that's a real problem but it's
not the worst problem because anyone who
computes this can prove immediately
without a single you know it's not an
interactive protocol it's just going to
the main chain say this is wrong and
then what we can do is we can say okay
we committed this block then in the next
block right this is maybe maybe a little
more clear public in this block so here
we committed this block right here
Boop and then in this one we're like oh
there's some fraud and so we raise the
red flag and we delete this block and
then in the next block we build another
block on our chain starting from the
last value block and it turns out
they're doing this very like relatively
simple scheme it we actually get pretty
significant scaling benefit so the the
scale that Barry was talking about we
get that as well in Optima
Rolla and the benefit is we get that
with general-purpose computation in that
we can build an EVM you know a real you
know like normal
normal solidity developer experience
inside of aetherium with better scaling
properties using this technique so this
is a really really nice thing and it
actually borrows a lot of you know kind
of inspiration and and and you know this
is this is very similar to the stuff
that's going on maybe two with all the
sharding and data availability
separation and it all plays really
nicely and once we do happy to then
we'll just have way more ability to kind
of post data so it just kind of scales
us up pretty you know pretty
significantly maybe linearly with the
number of shots so I think that's kind
of a high-level overview the benefits
are scale the downsides are over then
and then the downsides I mean I don't
know there are no downsides
technology was a quiz question what's
the size of the park groups and is the
scale with data presentation right great
question so basically what you can think
of the Frog groups you need to commit
intermediate state routes frequently
enough that you can evaluate that full
transition in one lock so you say like
okay we're going to you know cap it at 2
million gas internally and so we we
basically you know can only do two
million dollars of computation so you do
the full state transition in the case of
product yes we do the full stage
incision and we go from one community
root to the nuts and are there timing
assumptions on when you have to get this
property a great question so
interestingly this is almost like a side
chain inside of an area or like you know
it's like it's kind of like a weird you
know it's somehow the exit procedure is
a little bit like you know reminiscent
of just a normal you know bridge where
essentially what we do is we say well
for one we don't actually need a
finality period baked-in like that's
kind of something that you could add you
could just say will revert infinitely
far back but that's not really that
realistic considering all that may
change you might want to say you know
submit a transaction which then deposits
some amount of evil right and we we
basically want the ability to then
withdraw that even eventually and to
withdraw the eve we need to have this
lioness assumption that you're talking
about and so because I decided it's one
week so one week that's exactly the time
that it will take to find the front a
question Solon's yeah yeah so property
goes in and we now build on it basically
delivery is
that transaction yeah how do you do that
without halting the chain let's say it
comes one week later and basically
relation eight or other validators or
sequence in the auditory route are just
not going to build on top of this state
technically know that it's wrong guess
what what is the reorg process look like
and what happens if the property doesn't
like go up until four days later
great question okay so technically I'm
doing some some simplifications here
right realistically there are two things
that are happening there's this kind of
log of transactions these are all the
different transactions right tons of
tons of transactions and then here's the
log of state routes right and here's a
bunch of state routes and so the trick
you basically use some set of these
transactions to generate one of these
states right and then you use another
set and you generate another state route
and so if they're if this guy is invalid
right then what would happen is we would
have to basically reprocess all these
transactions based on you know the
actually you know reprocess all the
transactions after this state route so
like once we challenge it we delete the
state route we would not delete the
transactions and then we just reprocess
everything so it but it does require a
reorg and if you're like it because if
it gets in four days ago and you know
you bought some some even or something
or you bought some token and it's
dependent on an invalid Sabre then yes
you you will you may not have your money
but that's why someone has to check
[Music]
but I mean so in that case how do you
mean that you mean a fraud here or fried
I mean you have the roller exciting
don't worry
Roger rule of change Mona okay so
ethereal thankfully gives us a total
ordering of transactions which means
that there's a deterministic way to
determine the form and so really you can
think of this chain has literally a list
of blocks like like the data structure
that we use is just an array and so
realistically all you're doing when you
when you say like have a Ford you're
just like destroying one of the elements
and then reinserting a new element right
so there there is there isn't this isn't
like a really chlorophyll thing because
we don't need a forkful thing because we
have this deterministic theory yes I
want to be fake but well what is the
impact if someone falsely yells fraud
well no yes thank you what is being that
sir what is the other I cannot do that
what is the impact of wait sorry I
forgot the question
they've been attack you're falsely
claims brought them up and what is the
penalty in doing three so this is
actually related to a question I didn't
have answer from you and also I forgot
to mention the first thing so the
question is what is the impact of fraud
and the question that if it was what
does it take to be to submit one of
these blocks Utley so you need a bond
right there's no question that we need a
bond so essentially when you submit a
block there needs to be some money at
stake that can be you know slashed and
so what we do is we burn most of it and
give some to the rewards that are your
best moment myself if I falsely claimed
that something is a problem oh you just
lose your gas it's great because it's
all deterministic right we're not
playing this interactive game you are
you submit an invalid frog group and it
literally just reverts like like if you
know aetherium opcode Roberta so the
progress will excuse my blog so it's
just spending two million gaspers kind
of sucks and you know deterministic
makes a large do have a question though
because you have a period of maximum
perversion facility and you have a
swollen gas limit on chain thank you you
have a theoretical mass amount of these
chains that you can support on correct a
great question so you've okay I don't
know if I believe I would say you can
only refer like Senator Burke period is
one lock the only word and put them
above see like ten million guests to
play with and so you can't support up
bow are chains that some to you can
securely support or the some of the or
chains that some
gasps because within the one block or a
period of everyone was fraudulent you
can you can support roll backs of all of
them so you can extend that to like
think about the week long of those I I'm
not I'm not sure if I understand but I
don't believe that we have this problem
because you like even are you saying
like if this is invalid right like the
way that I prove it is I just prove this
is invalid and then I just delete
everything here right yeah but if you I
know you're saying you're saying that if
you have a block on your side chain that
has they take more computation you can
do on the main chain of those whims
nobody's chump change that's okay
usually think you're insecure so but
then there's not enough gas on came to
Rio over time so you can solve this in
two ways one you can this is something
to change the design they can have like
a higher bond and a longer time period
yeah so if you have a if you have a
bigger bomb you need to have a shorter
time out period so this is like a this
is like we can solve this by any
variable on like our time outside and
I'm variable pause because if you think
about it I get more money if I slash
someone on a chain that it's a bigger
reward
so I'm if you have sorry you have like
five chains they all have they'd all
have a max of two million guests and
they can all revert like them they have
one block with which they can do a
challenge record so that they can all
they can all fit to that block
Shayne and like do their efforts but if
you now have six chains often I'll chain
and then now it's calming and you have
one block to be able to do the actual
workers and usually you'd have much more
time period so it's all I think yeah
yeah yeah you guy don't think you can
because even if they're all submitting
blocks and like let's say they're all of
the invalid blocks are progressing like
one honest user is going to eventually
before one week submit one transaction
to delete all of those blocks in Ivanka
know Cal he has like a hundred five
example where there's like one day and
this is enough time I get it he's given
the example of hi every not okay I see
is open so that's definitely okay so
there's probably within that week
there's also a maximum I said maximum
number of her teaching support thus a
maximum number of changing all the hail
the one optimistic role of chain I think
premature ization bullet will help here
I think I think during this conversation
two important things came up the
guarantees that are useful for for these
kind of set ups and then base one
numbers is first of all that you can get
a deterministic ordering of blocks right
and all the computation of this
opportunity but but that's what the
critical feature that phase one offers
to in terms of if you want to develop
your own application this is like one of
the guarantees that you suddenly gain
now and then if they're in one already
has that obviously but the second
feature that we gain here that it was
alluding to is increased bandwidth right
so they're suddenly 64 or thousand
charts that you can submit front proofs
for example so you're not as likely to
end up will start change
right I'll just be highlighting these
little points along the way like what
the two things that they are worried
about the first one is it's not
decentralized enough and the thing is
they don't see it is not security and
what you feel about about the security
so I think that like what time is
getting on is is kind of close to a nice
differencing in fact of imaging systems
so it's quick detail although you fail
when when you have too many transactions
when you have too much throughput you
just can't put any more but with alpha
is equal of if you have too much through
but then you have this kind of situation
like you were describing where you don't
have enough you don't have enough blog
space but instead of just not being able
to fill it all you have this kind of
weird condition where someone might be
able to attack if it's like a
coordinated attack against every every
every often is
however I think that the economics of
running that attack could be the kind of
it's expensive because you have to burn
on all but one chain and you could you
can attack one chain and you have to
burn all the one so it depends on the
size of the problems that you have and
the time periods when I'm done okay one
I think that generally people who say
this is a great layer to a lot of the
times are not really like telling you
about a secure protocol and so I think
that it's a very well founded kind of
you know fear it's like oh this is a
great layer - it's totally secure and
they're just kind of like you know
hand-waving half the design space so I
think that that is absolutely correct
and I also don't think that this be kind
of like block congestion problem for
generally layer two because this is a
problem of you know state channels of
every layer - that's based on the
dispute period if you you know fill up
the blocks then you're then you're kind
of out of luck however I want to just
really really quickly talk about the
kind of asymmetry and the attack/defense
scheme here that that makes this dispute
you know this is a dispute like
censorship problem really really hard to
to achieve so if I have some value of
you know let's say you know a thousand
right that's locked up in a dispute that
I'm go up then I'm scared of losing
right then I will like to sending a
transaction and like aetherium
transaction that pays like 99
you know like contrived but 999 gas to
get it out right I'm willing to burn a
lot of money to you know kind of save
this because I'll be making a profit
otherwise I'm going to lose it so I am
trying to get out one dollar but an
attacker has to fill up all the blocks
right for some time period of like you
know one week and they have to be above
my maximum price the entire time right
or it's just like a total censorship
tagging approve of etherium and then
we're like ad appearances security so
like this means that what I'm willing to
spend one time they have to spend
continuously for the entire censorship
period which is you know I think a
reasonable attempt defense model we
definitely want layer one to scale this
is not that's what you're looking for
yes oh sorry we're like in the back I
didn't want to just speak up
mr. Gowda moving out that the rate of
return run within a single phone is
there any way of enforcing that I mean
if I'm found operator can I just create
this one yeah that's a great question
it's really nice this is enforced in
etherium we just run the block in if the
block runs out of gas and it's a prophet
can you explain again why your sanitizer
has to pay for the whole week cuz I
thought that by going to be me and you
and whoever wants to spend our fraud
proofs against attacker so we can try
and get all of our father's down
[Music]
whoever's paying for the Frog group the
Frog group is going to be like this and
then the attacker needs to fill blocks
that are you know people gasp above
whatever that is for the entire week of
the tiger all he would have to do is
submit a ball on an invalid race that we
all have to them hey guys to get our
blocks in I think yeah probably good
today take it offline but
as for mobile so I'll have two people
knowing the based solutions here Paul
Daniel do over here is just a mean
making your that's above there two
solutions actually being able to use
these as a desk developers so with Z
controller we're still kind of focused
on the events of the first movie concept
I think that that makes a lot of sense
to I think that we like have a
responsibility to prove the people that
this is secure at least in in like a
limited version before we start to kind
of try and push more people instead of
build on it or support them so that's
that's kind of what we're working on to
just do a stupid concept or like not a
group concept will make a real thing
that actually works and stays stable for
a while and after that you will have all
the tooling that we need to make my
scenario to take a little bit we'd be
kind of exploring that this is also
really good this is also really good
time if you have an idea for a kind of
application of phase one you could now
also ask people like these people that
have gone through the motions think that
it could work with the properties that
you get on the face ones like use the
time so just a question
built on this and then we're really a
lot of hands raised and listening to
this I got a lot of cognitive fatigue
because it seems like a deep technical
knife and the things that aren't
confirmed yet on your bass one so for
example running a little bit of what I
was trying to understand plasma and and
so I spent a tremendous amount of
cognitive load trying to understand
plasma as a developer and it's sort of
building this for not now
so in this discussion it's very very
interesting however as a developer I
have a certain amount of bandwidth for
this for a low-level protocol
understanding and so I think maybe if
you could just sort of say the stuff
that we've talked about in the past half
hour how much of this is locked in and
confirmed that it won't change in terms
of these specs you've just discussed now
okay so the question is the question is
let's summarize what what do I care
about is a developer I could know right
now so just to say how much of this is
for sure not going to change in the next
three months set how much of this is
voice you are not going to change one
three one and three let's say so like
the kind of I think the kind of trying
to be mean kind of loud and other people
who work on this stuff happen as well is
to try and build things that will work
on their - I will also work at E - like
whatever my work is all focused words
there - Auggie's one just because I have
the same good sizes you I don't want to
build something that that's going to
change so I don't know maybe we can
check with Danny
specifically means regardless of which
data Larian their availability like is
isn't worth actually learning as you
can't roll up like is is the notion of
this protocol going to drastically
change to the next four months such that
the cognitive about realizing about
memory that you might spend today to
learn it and begin thinking about how to
development like might just intron the
window in court months this is a great
question and i think that people should
not really have to learn this at all in
terms of answering it on face value
about say like a solid 90 percent 95
percent of what I talked about here is
just this is literally how optimistic
roll-up works and we already can get
smart contracts on this right so like
this the the I think that the big
problem with layer two thus far it's
been we have been talking about you know
protocols incentive reasoning and like
expecting developers to actually you
know have to learn about how these
different parties are going to interact
in these different worlds and how
they're going to you know you do play
out some dispute game like I don't want
people to think about dispute games I
just want people to write smart
contracts because that's what got me
into aetherium personally and so this is
the entire reason why I'm interested in
optimistic role is it's the fastest way
to start scaling and improving the user
experience of solidity smart contracts I
think it's an interesting observation as
well like it when I at the beginning
alluded to the fairly early stages yet
it was also to raise awareness that in
entering phase one or even two
discussions right now you need to get
fairly deep in the weeds like if you
want to develop a next
apparently deep right that's a bit of
work however we've already torn out a
couple of these simple properties that
you can already like start imagining
what kind of solutions you can build on
this if if you were to do that right
what do you guys think of lazy Leger
hmm I mean I just really like it because
it seems like a nice separation of
concerns
Oh lazy ledger is like ace minimalistic
data availability engine and says okay
we're going to provide availability and
ordering for transactions but we are not
going to necessarily do a execution
thing so people can essentially execute
based on the you know data that is
provided by the lazy ledger
it's your grace your encoding and some
it's like a pretty nice simple scheme
okay so in general I think that
solutions like that require you to log
over as much capital a lot of capital
and they don't love you no more capital
than you can transmit a new system
because otherwise someone can just
disappear the data you can update your
sister so like the I think I will this
conduits logical conclusion is is you
have the whole world's transact economy
has built upon this like lazy Nigeria
application the other half is on the
positive side so I was a different east
to well east to is okay alright so
here's the difference difference
so ease to enthuse the date availability
there you roll back the chain you
recover from a failure so you roll back
the chain plus you roll like the
execution inches but it lazy Lecter has
that because it's not this time complete
between the execution engine inability
engine you won't be able to roll you
roll back later that you're a good
execution and you do that if you're
talking about bass one on e 2 as a data
view ability engine with without
execution and this rollback is happening
an e-form contract with execution all
right we're gonna take you short break
I think phase 1 gives you data
availability all right it's like a
stronger and even they know that you
guys order stays there cool so this is
to give an overview so you guys have a
general understanding things too and
then we'll dive into the Devex
discussions so yeah I gave it talking
day one just kind of gonna be similar to
that but I'm gonna freeze over a lot
more we go through
so we talked about PC already I don't
feel like I need to cover this yosik dip
so bigger chains kind of this organizing
layer manages the cross links the
finality of each of the charts so then
face one we already just talked about
this shards it's date availability other
players so we get that on phase two this
is where I say it brings the shards to
life even more because now they have
stated to keep it enough so that we can
do generalize computation layer protocol
so it kind of give you guys an overview
so to help you understand that new I
guess framework by which phase two is
being proposed it's all about these
things called execution environments and
so I'm going to give you an example from
each one
hopefully that extends your mental model
appropriately so needs why we can say
that there is one execution framework or
one execution environment and it's just
enshrined into the core Keith's one
protocol are decoded it's hard coded
into the nodes so if you want to change
it you have to fork and so a really good
example is a transaction anyone has
nonce gas price guess let me to value
data all these fields uses our LP
encoding and if you want to change any
of this if you want to add a field you
want to pick it up adjusts use some
other an encoding schema the way to
change that is you have to change the
big Corp protocol right imminent so you
have to do you have to do for can change
chained together similarly like you know
in he's won the global state is managed
by a petitioner or golden tree and each
of calories leaf kind of has these
fields nonce balance storage
Oh - so if you want to change that is
well the accounts director if you want
to add field use different different
accumulators so it's an attrition of
Michael tree or anything like that again
it's the same thing we have to we would
have to do you know before on and want
to change that except a review that it's
basically each one we just have one
transaction framework we have one
execution framework we have one
execution environment that is
essentially hard-coded into this system
so if two kind of took takes more of a
radical shift and it says you know the
core consensus doesn't really need to
have a strong hard coded opinion on
transaction structure the consensus
layers good at managing a lot of
overhead logic
this is ordering of blocks for choice
rules execution tooling right so this is
the UI zone splashing rewards and the
validators different things like that
and so it takes kind of this radical
shift that the core protocol doesn't
need to actually have a strong opinion
on what a transaction structure looks
like or what you know how an account is
organized fields or accounts in fact you
can you can support multiple in the same
o in the same shard and so this is the
radical shift that we no longer just
have one enshrined hard-coded
transaction system or account framework
and so this is kind of a goofy little
diagram but I think it like helps people
understand so on a shard it needs to you
can have multiple execution environments
so example we're gonna bring each one to
a shard
right and so even one itself would be an
execution environment so here we're
saying this is just all in one shard
right now we're not
the systems of wool in one block in one
shard we could have eat one running
we could have an eighth to eat which
I'll talk about in a second which is a
iterated cattle we could have a UTF so
like you know if my model we'd have a ZK
roll-ups focused execution environment
we could have the Libre
move running on YouTube so not me laughs
but we could you know just to like kind
of give give illustration here and so
within each of these ETS you get this
synchronous communication within
yourself so in the eighth one EE nothing
really changes as far as transactions or
contracts meaningful other contracts
synchronously but then you have to think
about these communication when you hop
from one EEG another so the e20 es that
I call the UTM so or the into account
Paulo or the Libra so he is execution
environment like I said you definitely
probably have a lot of things he could
hospital interpreter you want to there's
a lot you can do this left flexibility
so tightly deeper what does this
actually look like
so the beacon chain stores these P
reducing functions and so these give the
rules by which transactions will run so
this gives the rules by which
transactions are validated and will it
imbalance what the actual state
transition would would be for for that
EP and so this is just a pure wasn't
wasn't reducing function and so to give
an example
Keith one you could kind of consider you
have a state right even function never
runs that function has a bunch of
transaction data and output is you have
a new state state price as Fred and Eve
- we do have a stateless model so we can
say this is actually ported because now
we just have a free state hash
reduce the function
it produces a state action so an example
here each shard if there's a transaction
that is each one related it you know
pulls down the watts of pure reducible
function from the beacon chain and then
executes this package of transactions
for the keys one EE appropriately and
then the same block can do it for an
account model and I'll talk about that
in a second or fourth and you can still
model or another encounter so yeah so
we're already kind of you know play with
this so Alex and the e wasn't team
created a repo called scalp which
already lets you to prototyping on these
execution environments and again this is
what the function will don't like it's
across this block takes block data
pre-state group and it gives you a post
a grid hash so again it's exactly this
so if there's something here and maybe
this is what we talked about today's
execution environments they're not
necessarily analogous to smart contracts
they could be so for example an
execution environment is one EP right
defines an execution environment where
like more code can rock so smart
contracts can kind of run in
world of the eath one you use that
defines how continue to code can be
executed with or how continued contracts
in the entity did
so keep defying laws many more wiser
with I think this is an interesting
quote from trust with easy-to-use tracks
that fixed execution semantics of almost
any conceivable programmable blockchain
in a similar way to help even one
abstract to the fixed semantics with
digital tokens currencies in the early
blockchain Bitcoin era I think this is
cold so they either to EE what we talk
about this is still under today because
there's some other perspectives there's
this fella model or an on umbrella model
and we could go into that a bit to the
eath to EE is saying you know we're
trying to do a lot to make that Eve one
compatible and bring that over into as
an execution environment and it to you
too but we realized they're a lot better
accumulator formats that we can use
there are a lot better models that we
can follow there you know are a lot of
things that we learned and so we can
make another ee that is focused in
generic on running smart contracts
liking one that's also an account model
but we can make it you know even better
then we can make it more wise obstetric
and so this is the concept of a to a
meeting I think he was I mean this is a
state execution happens within the
consents to be shard everything is all
the execution is centered right he wasa
he wants provides me a concept of
Hanson yeah skip that for now so this
this system is stateless I don't know if
we need to really dive into that too
much to during today's session but in
case you're curious so that means there
are actors in the system that hold state
and so there's a lot of discussion
discussion about this the the best
example that I can give for a stateless
system is with your transaction you
provide the database so if I'm you know
submitting a transaction work will
Villanueva is transferring 5e to shall
we
so I need to prove what my account
currently looks like what my balance is
I use a market proof to do that and I
need to prove what her account looks
like as well so I in this case I show
that I have 16 and shall would way has
three and so now when the block producer
exit counts the transaction it basically
just pulls from the proof that I gave it
pulls from limited database that I gave
with my transaction so definitely
validators block producers they don't
need to know anything about the state
they can just pull from the this
database that comes with each of your
transactions
I'm switch over so the talented a really
cool post on this just recently so this
is what we're bringing eath 1 + 2 e 2 as
an execution environment this means that
we need the EDM built-in web assembly
and this would be defined in that be
script that we talked about he'd go on
that he was this one has been doing
really really good working not as well
but there's a lot of work to do here
there's still you know it
prototype that still needs to be you
know kind of yeah established IV tui
talked about this you know this is kind
of an iterative version for contract
check framework it's wasn't centric yeah
and and so then we'll go to crush that
transaction so you know there's kind of
three spaces here that it falls under
and I think today will probably just
fill this in the first one that a
synchronous support protocol so
basically that's you know you wait until
finality once you get finality for
another chart that now you can trust a
message that comes from a chart so
that's typically would be considered
slower than secured state you know it
will never roll back through the never
reorganize there is a new proposal that
batalik has made which limits so crashed
our transactions now would only happen
in one block so that's actually really
cool that that's so unbearable so I
think before finality would take about
six to 18 minutes having one block is
you know six seconds to make a call to
another sharp that's that's really cool
but there's always with every proposal
that you read there's always going to be
trade-offs pros cons that kind of it
then there's this whole model of
optimistic system so these are like
dependency graphs that kind of reward
themselves with this new proposal we
wouldn't need those anymore but these do
the idea is you can use basically almost
these like hybrid systems that allow you
to get crossed out transactions in one
block assuming that it will
and hopefully that we won't need that
anymore
and then yeah that this you can give
like a synchronous cross judge has
actions through I think optimistic Rolex
is a really good example so this is
where you know you in eighth to like if
you bring optimistic roll ups to to you
can now upload your data on four
different shards so user if they want to
upload their transaction they can they
can access any of those four shards and
so now they're not you know they're good
it's yeah you get you get a lot extra
there as well that's pretty cool
delays data execution it's kind of all
falls under the same the same branch of
things so when you think of crossed our
transaction that substance effect Deb X
in general let's just like focus on a
sink or decide the synchronous I'd it
really shouldn't change that much and
this is you know wet like Carlin those
guys talk to you about that a little bit
more on the easting side the difference
is so hll is our higher level languages
do cells so right very different things
like that so this these tools should
just provide property right now so what
that means is as a developer you now
need to operate under this idea of you
are gonna make asynchronous calls in the
smart contracts with you right and you
need to be aware of that you need to be
open to that and then there may be even
you know some some things that you need
that require more than just easing this
call so a different tooling that should
be included in these in these systems
which can be a kid to programming cross
thread so if you need to make an atomic
transaction so Terrell training problem
you mean there are different approaches
that you can go with you can go with a
locking system readwrite which
essentially rolls down into this that
yanking model you have a two-phase
commit email which could essentially
also be kind of a messaging model you
have a message driven approach one of
those ideas is like the actor actor and
model and then just simple asynchronous
calls so kind of depends what you need
with your contract you developed are
going to need to understand which one of
these tools depending on you know what
you need a lot of developers will
probably only need a stand as calls
others may need some type of concept of
an atomic transaction across multiple
contracts that's why you just need to
use the best tool I mean most of these
toolings should be provide
provided and developed within things
like solidity and fiber so just think of
it as you know you're dealing with
asynchronous calls out promises whatever
else and the latency depends on how long
it takes for reduce for finality time
and or if you know this this you know
new direction is taken you could get
that they can see just one block which
is actually pretty cool I think that's a
lot of people can work with that
other changes index yeah so POS provides
them some things you know there's some
speed increases
fusion constantly decrease to there
being multiple shards I don't want to
draw too much attention to that line web
3 ethers Jess these these things the web
through Jess
they actually shouldn't change that much
if you're doing with the piece one that
youth one eaten their coordination area
under underneath it all will change for
sure but for the most part if you're
dealing with the f1e
it shouldn't change drastically there
might be some changes from your
perspective especially if you're writing
new contracts that might be chard aware
but again it shouldn't ditch much and in
fact I imagine that there'll be this
world where the will be standards around
these movies that are built and so web
three days can basically be portable to
these different edu models and they you
know I think this is like a really cool
space and I just would love to see more
people you know kind of idat you know
get involved on some of these things
over time it we're likely to have more
blossom centric smart konchog languages
so you know I don't think you know
solidity or viper were necessarily built
with there was no centric approach so
you know that that will likely you know
come and effect its developers as well
so which should I build an ee so if your
protocol researcher developer absolutely
you want to experiment with new
accumulators you want to experiment with
you know different different approaches
like that yet you should do you think
idea which only makes sense as a Nene
does your application be more
flexibility or enhanced scalability
right that you might want to you know
work out any need for for the
application but also you may just get
left behind if you don't learn this and
you don't learn too
leverage that to your advantage if you
don't at least learn to understand
what's happening behind the scenes I
think there's a good amount of
discussion regarding keys some some
parties believe you know that there
should just be you know three or four or
five ETS and that's what everyone uses
others believe that the you know the
amount of ease
there should be an app either
application and then we build a model by
which is just kind of communicate with
each other and so it's kind of these two
camps I think they all have their
trade-offs pros and cons and whatever
happens they don't necessarily think the
things that I mentioned just prior
should actually affect that duck
developer significant angles so yeah
that I hope gives a like good overview
for everyone of what phase two is I'm
generally optimistic about things yeah I
mean there's a lot of people much much
smarter than me were working on this and
building building using again I just
want to you know call out like you know
Alex Paul Casey Erin
I mean phase two is phase two because of
Casey you know in large part originally
anyways there is a session where you
know the US team has worked on a ton of
different E's and it's like really
really cool to see a lot of the
evasion and creativity years that's
happening is really exciting a lot of
smart people are working on this so yeah
I does anyone have any like overview
questions yeah someone who's all of this
from really far actually two questions
served one this I believe that back to
the day I think it was an interview with
Justin very he was saying that there
would be only one execution engine
across all charts and this is new to me
so I was wondering well they shift has
happened and what the rationales behind
it the second question is so if we
imagine different shots having different
execution engines how do they come back
I mean does the foundation decree at
some point you'll have thousands of your
charts and five of them have this
execution engine not cetera I assume
it's not the case but how do you
envision that to come about yeah so I
think Justin kind of takes you know one
one side that's very very strong and
then there's kind of the other side
which is just let everyone every top
developer right and II mean so these are
kind of into the two different ends
right and I think it hasn't been
resolved like those discussions just
need to happen and this is part of what
we're doing by prototyping and looking
at it I tend to think that there's
probably just gonna be like a gentle
balance this this is my opinion and in
no way is that you know you know all the
researchers our research team Alex and
Casey and Danny and everyone here might
have a different opinion than me my
general opinion is that there's a
delicate balance where there are like
four es that are kind of entries
right smart contracts for they already
have the standards they're just easy to
do play - you don't have to think about
complexity what accumulators you're
gonna use you don't have to think about
these things right but if you want to
then you're free to launch your own e
that can then integrate with these
because I think not allowing developers
to launching eases like I don't know
this is gonna be a huge area of
innovation where we can learn so much
you should definitely open that up
so that's that's my general like thought
although I think most DAP developers
will be operating across you know maybe
four major ease that that are you know
the most popular I think here to your
question for DES Moine anything the idea
is that you have to pay a large you know
a fairly large sum to deploy EE onto the
beacon shape and then what is unknown is
whether that EE is now just available
across all shards or whether you need to
you need to pay to deploy it on each
shark individually that you want to
operate on so like a shark you have
multiple e's running does that do you
have access to all the Sharks just by
the point what something the beacon
chain or do you have to also deploy on
each of the sharks that you want me to
write on so I think again these are
research questions we're not entirely
sure but I think we'll probably have
answers you know hopefully fairly soon
in the new year's time as we continue to
just prototype these things yeah so as
to develop among EE I would like to find
other
will that have money and pulled our
resources and then before that yeah yeah
so maybe you know one one really good
example is that youth 188 right so
that's you know probably that there in
foundation stands behind that provides
kind of the funding to deploy that and
there's already an ecosystem around that
but now let's say there's a new account
model that people you know to support
case is gonna say something in a moment
a new account model that people support
and it uses this cool new accumulator
format and a bunch of developers want to
work on that start writing contracts for
that gap you kind of organize zero
you're an approach to do that but you
could also just I see also world where I
can just you know play if I want to you
know depending on how much costs on it
employee an experiment with it on my own
and I could do that but again I think
you know there's a lot there here Casey
wanted a comment or message did okay
then retires the members
oh yeah you kind of covered it but
essentially like the chain is this
highly available in the system if you're
syncing any sharks you're also seem to
be a chain and so having having data
deployed on it having these easily can
and must be expensive and so I don't I
don't see a world on my team it makes
sense to employ and in a world in which
gaps are highly used across across the
globe the cost model can't be such that
every gap is deployed right you might
something like mega casino death might
deploy their army is there some strange
advertising thing but but generally in
terms of like hands like being being
close to other gaps and like operating a
hand and ways of scale and also the cost
model of deploying something within it
would be such so much less that Li you
you likely operate within Neath my ear
in need to e or or within some other
thought oh yeah but uh whether they're
tools for developers but they're they're
more alike it might mean more akin to
protocol development in traditional
sense than they are to death Bowman yeah
I think this question about weekend
employees and how many keys you know
there might be is biggest you know
unresolved question if I was there's a
range of opinions and ways like I think
the split came from the heart to the
idea of minimal execution when you had
phase one and then and there was no
execution phase one
there's only institutions phase 2 and
phase 2 was supposed to be this
execution that was maximally similar to
each one and so shards you'd have 1,000
copies a piece of each one and the
execution would be stateful like each
one and it would you know prescribe it
would have an account structure you know
apartment restructure everything like
he's you know like he's one but better
and the shift to minimal execution said
well no you know these execution
environments the execution environments
will define these and an execution
environment it's just a fancy word for a
contract unease - the way I see it had a
slide that said not necessarily
analogous to smart contracts I guess the
main difference here is underneath won a
contract cannot run IBM code but there's
an old EAP like from metallic to add a
mouth code like brownie BM so when an EE
and analogous to a contract on East one
with the extra opcode of row and Wasson
you know or from EBM and so in the EE
like you can you can take a view point
where the EE would sort of define all
this stuff that enables people to have a
good user experiences and
and defines how like contracts call each
other and so forth and so in the old
model it was like for developers would
develop all this stuff at phase two and
then the app developers would come on
and then you know use the toy depth on
these two with minimal execution it's
kind of like we spend philosophy with
minimal execution ISM this is a massive
- challenge - and it not only is a
massive challenge but if it's also very
opinionated approach and in my opinion
it's it's like kind of authoritarian and
dictatorial to say like well you know we
want to restrict the EES that could be
to put immediate response encode so why
would you restrict what was in code
you know people can deploy you know
people shoot some fully run whatever
wasn't what they wanted like like they
can run any PM quote they want he's
funny
I will and I like when I uh my opinion
and weaknesses like broad but I will say
the opinion of Justice which interest
Tiger ease we have this world in which
forget we want you to be into E and a
movie E and at this he and some other EE
and then another one that looks like a
llama does not miss definitely we have
this world in which you might end up
having like a very fragmented ecosystem
where if you instead have some sort of
been trying to start and this is like
the other extreme of the opinion where
it's each one and you it feels like each
one it feels like being how models that
we know and love one a very like clear
developers story on how to build on this
and to like kind of creates this unified
experience where everything is initially
it could be speaker system so that's the
the counter to the dictatorial view of
the opinion
I'm not certain exactly where I didn't
where I live but I just wanted to get
that okay since you cannot update these
and it's fixed if you do end up with a
Chinese and you keep improving those
ease and even at the point is it going
to be a heart or earth Lord and I'll
give the mic backgrounds but the I think
it's very likely that at least one of
these is still potentially updated
and social consensus the youth won't
leave so I don't think that is ready I
think that I think that it's going to be
very hard to say this is f1 now and you
can never change it like everyone exists
and operates in this there's tons of
stuff there and like I think the social
consensus is still hardcore hand might
very well say this but we this is not
quite over here yeah I wanted to break
the especially a little bit here because
they came very deep and I actually
wanted to give the microphone to you
guys and I'd listen to questions
reactions so what the question is Miss B
the earth is warming but tradition
especially we have different ease and
different states and how this even deal
with that all already destroying more
like
change them or comic-con like me so I'm
not sure of how this officially looks
like yet so your question is in a
Charlotte model with cross no
transactions you end up getting your
state fragmented across multiple shards
right okay and how do you deal with that
especially across from a été you're
saying so first we have what if I had
what account of state model and how this
edition how to define this partition
will this be another further question is
is possible of a change the state of a
mother and sister so and because this to
the current the current proposal space
didn't again things are all under
research is so you can build like in
building you're a needy you can
basically have standards by which
another you know some probably make some
type of message loot to that you right
but it again this would be like an
asynchronous call that you would have to
make it to Iggy you're not guaranteed
that it will reach that separate you and
you know until maybe a couple blocks or
whatever else is there but I think that
is more up to how that really is what
is how it allows them to calm it to it
how it allows them to integrate into it
so I think that's that's a big space
that needs to be explored within 1e the
fragmentation approach if we get
cautionary calls to be pretty quick then
I think that sort of solves that problem
but
yester taking a step back here have a
pragmatic question if I want to build a
needy how do I get started like is there
a document epi or something that is
available how do I
disabuse discussion you may not would
not do you like to me you may not be
allowed to do because there's only one
in Chinese music scallops or elements of
vegetation but subjected to will mention
scared and there's an entry search post
which explains the API may just be 32
aspect with this kind of people there's
a rabbit except mr. Scout is it's just a
prototype we have four V's specifically
and in his examples I had to buy the
series soon as the best source to do so
I can also speak from a perspective like
what's gonna happen is that we can
change it deployed first and around that
time you will also start seeing clients
that deliver the data availability right
to face one intestines and then a two
legs count which is a prototyping
environment basically gives you access
it is data availability and a little
sandbox in which you can play with aims
right so that is kind of available now
to start playing with and some of the
primitives are being developed so the
idea would be here that after having
heard those excellent next
the new toys that you'll be able to play
with life-threatening
of course you can continue to work like
you did in each one and that would be
like you buy a 16 core criteria just
choose one of them right but then you
get a bunch of new toys and the idea is
then that you can start experimenting
with developing the primitives and
without that end user developers to have
a nice experience so would make a
transaction decide that I have to
provide the men's groups right for this
thing so but how do I know what the
state did with these days actually
so this goes back to the API and what
the current API is like five methods for
you know thanks to execution you know
E's one of them is get get current get
free State Road so you know this is
stored on the on the shard and so in the
wozmak oh you Pig get the priest a road
and then the other one is return across
state route so you do hydrologic then
you return the new post a true the next
transaction when it calls yet the priest
a road will get that new one that was
from the previous transaction but what's
the question within a II or from that
site but Matt it's not exactly what the
actual execution of each yeah so this is
so getting the state group you can but
that's available from the system that
youth to provides but if you're wanting
to get the state and you need the state
to in order to generate a multi booth
this introduces it basically there's a
new actor in their system these would be
what we call state providers and there's
you know right now three different
proposals one of them makes a state
provider is even more essential what we
call real layers one of them kind of
removes the relayer aspect and we just
need you know someone will provide state
to you and so this is an open area of
research I think we're all going to be
looking at this start getting into this
after DEFCON collaboratively and
hopefully we will be writing some good
research posts on this in general though
from the simplest model there's this
idea that you could pay to access state
so maybe there are actors in the system
that that would you know requires some
type of you know micro transaction in
order to write to give you witness that
would end up writing state that gets
submitted as part of a transaction maybe
they give you state for free to read you
know then in order to kind of build that
model we already have like generally
altruistic actors right now he needs one
I think in general the idea is to
eventually go away from the altruistic
model you know these one is generally
supported by a system of altruism right
I think there is some ins in the data
flow as well so the way the system is
built is that you go from a pre state we
execute something into a poor state and
that already tells you them from the
perspective of the you to consensus you
have to provide that pre state to the
function that is executing and then need
to verify sticky-up is correct birth or
that calculation right so something has
to provide that state and what that
something is up for debate
you may somebody to keep track of that
yourself you'd have to have nice
configure for that will this be provided
by a service network of some sort
excellent questions I'm destroying one
stage one of the possible ramifications
our experience with things like a sec
one sec
you have to be aware
I mean it depends what your your
contracts operate with right so you're
working with engines money hopefully
very very very very very little changes
mostly all the versatility in tooling
behind the scenes what network your
wallets connecting to you know but the
interface very few wallet shouldn't
change drastically the interface between
web 3 Dodgers ship changed drastically
you're still using solidity you might
have a few extra tools now someone
builds you know do the count model EE or
something else that has some new
constructs hopefully there are standards
that are built that kind of give you we
continue to not need to change these two
lanes drastic that's my hope I think we
want to strive for that yeah
they've been suspect an earlier question
of the partitioned with how to be
respect to maybe speed up each one if
they assume that this each one he could
have had bigger the same triplets s
curtains it's your one point over giving
your level higher but if you want to
significantly improve or so I I
generally think bringing all the
contracts that exist in each one right
now when you're bigger need to eat to
the scalability but you get from that
won't be drastic like you're still
running on one one shard because
contracts that exist are immutable and
they're not showing very F right you
can't just change the contract to make
it shareware and so you will have some
speed gains from through mistake and the
execution time that you know we're
shooting for I think where the
scalability would come is new yz1
contracts that can can now be Sharda
we're certainly needs one contracts in a
face of old ones it can be written in
this approach that it understands that
there are multiple shards so maybe a lot
of gaps are ok with you know the minor
scalability gains by moving a thorn in
to you two but now they want to take
care of the extra tooling so they might
have you know some type of social
consensus to move to in contract that
now utilizes sharp aware specific tools
that that's my general time
and he can see do you have additional
thoughts right so moving moving you
wanted to de opens up a number of
questions like what do you change what
you have to change what can you change
there's certain things like a knob the
difficulty up there like what does that
mean in this new context you have to
define those those things those other
opportunities potentially migrate from
traditional choose a binary local tree
and then another one these opportunities
is to open up the notion of char because
s/he was saying so you could you could
easily just deploy it on one shard it
doesn't have any notion of charting it
now exists in
eath to is kind of a signature paradigm
it does have access to make groups about
the entire data layer of e to at that
point so you could could get a lot more
scalability of some of these layer 2
schemes that were discussed earlier but
then I think one area research and one
thing that we'd like to push for and is
to open up the Charter paradigm within
eighth one and as he said existing
condors would know about this but new
ones discovery
still definitely up for debate one what
would change during that migration
process with anyone that other
techniques for dealing with situations
way
provide the pre data that data changes
before your transactions need mind to
say I went to send your transactions my
my collection isn't mine until I can't
go through now and in three days
immediate profits your account balance
change yeah
yeah that's a it's actually pretty easy
to do just with the vertical proof a tug
up to Merkel proofs and they don't know
each other and if they don't know about
each other at the time of being
submitted and then one transaction gets
processed than the other proof as is
invalid but there's already the
information there to update you know
refresh the proof so even if like well
if it several days you would need you
know all these the intermediate
transactions that were processed in the
meantime but the information yeah and
that's I mean that's what we've been
referring to as maybe stay providers or
three layers and that's where they come
in not as a day of oil you know have
this role of like updating groups and so
forth
so absolutely to the smart complaints
associated with a specific team or can
be running allergies
in all cases you probably have like a
notion of a smart contract being
deployed within the operating in that
environment you do probably have the
opportunity to think about new type of
layer to constructs that may be in a
layer to context kind of exists within
multiple ease with that step plane I
could do very research to decide that's
not goodness that much
so the EE would define in most contexts
he would define some sort of account
model some sort of deployment models
some sort of it just all the things that
you think of is like is eath one like
those things are now like in terms of
its common deployment all that kind of
stuff how transactions are interpreted
and modify the state that would be then
definable reliably so within within an
employee the mechanic was still operate
very similar but if you grow your own EE
and you wanted a notion of contracts you
might have to borrow some those concepts
or make new modifications and new new
ways in which things might exist
operating so again like yes these in
some respects look like contracts but
they also can look like protocols right
there they're like contract proclick you
define the user layer kind of protocol
via these this new type of you can chain
contract that's I think one of the I
mean the biggest difference between
deploying your own EE versus deploying
their contract you know like a child
contract of some parent you know EE is
to point that ye might cost say $1,000
that was like never telex pull out of
the air a few months ago whereas
deploying a contract you know child
contracts
under Nene with us maybe a few cents and
having paying the $1,000 to deploy the
ease just means that the code is like
early there and so you know you could be
able to run transactions within it you
know many more per watt for as if it's a
child contract maybe you know you have
to pass in the code every time and your
circle would be less this is what you
know where the trade officer
yeah at the same time you've also you
know fragments in your universe from
other like you you now will require like
a synchronous communication to another
so you're missing out on some potential
like synergies and just deploying into
an existing media as well and to speak
to that like a thousand like because the
beacon chain is this component the
system image an earlier that like every
node has to run this thing to be able to
reverse inca run shards and sync data
village charts it we have to bound the
state size and so like this capital is
like likely burned or locked up this
economic models under investigation but
would be capital-intensive because the
state needs to be succinct and I prefer
locked up just in the same way you know
if you want to become a validator your
validator account is you know it's an
account underneath the beacon state so I
revalidate er Lopes the beacon state so
in order to limit the glow of a beacon
state it costs 32 litre to become a
validator and it's not burned it's just
a deposit so we can take the same
approach with employees all right then
you get the idea of any disappearing at
some point so there's that there's the
laser everything should yeah it's
explored in the in the minimal
territorial model would you have
arbitrary state and arbitrary
computation on that state just like
really intense a trend or you know
you're like locking up some amount of
capital to keep some kind of state
because everyone needs to own the state
and I'm just curious if you would you
know allow in this model arbitrary state
and arbitrary state regulations yeah so
I guess I should qualify within the
dictatorial model where
the architects of the system restrict
what ease you can deploy like there it
might not make a difference if it's the
type of EE where users can deploy any
kind of code they want under that Evie
so if that is the case then there's you
know well what layer are you operating
at and maybe it doesn't make a
difference users can run any code they
want anyway
and if that role of the e is very
minimal but if it's like if these
sanction II's restrict the type of code
that people can deploy then you know
those that'd be a very dictatorial you
know certainly not the intention on that
extreme yeah all right we have good
sorry notices just materialize I also
think it'd be sad if that were the case
because like you want people to innovate
and try a lot
I think that's yeah that's our goal and
still Ravenna soul might understand is
basically that Eve has it's
basically a letter moment that conveys
EXO and also had defined how these
transactions can modify this day in the
past my culture my name isn't one and
also in technical details of scripting
work so one question is supported
possible patterns can positive qualities
in these and this basically Domino's
also scored responding at a survival in
HP Israel and if there's a person in a
developer that curve a is even amount
isn't all internationally great some is
actually in this new EEO any existing in
how to prevent that happening because
like the books I already came
defective also in Canada clients of a
camera yeah I think so
balances of the EES are not going to be
significantly different
as an example than a validator balance
they have the ability to pass there's
the ability to deposit but funds to be
because the tariff alligator so as far
as like funds being printed out of
nowhere that would be an issue but but
what could happen is just like one you
need to have a very significant audit on
a smart contract a needy would also need
to go through that same thing because
you wouldn't want it to them users bring
their funds into it and then you would
want to steal your files right so just
to be clear from the notion the only
thing that owns ether and in this model
is validator accounts on the beacon
chain and from the layer one perspective
and these e's they have they have a
certain amount of ether assigned to them
then within the there's some sort of
account structure that gives you right
to like access it with a maybe a year
initially transfer another ee or become
abouthere so the minting of outside of
the normal like validation mechanism
would be a like that would be a layer
one protocol bug like that would be
something that the like kind of sandbox
world of an ee which is just blossom
code should not be able to do and if it
did like that would be a layer one bug
which we would work I guess the question
was like if inside
some maintain right and I'm saying it's
not possible a muster or a bug in the
lair one protocol no because the e only
has access to the east that is in its
account so there's 10 8th in the CV and
there's some sort of stuff like a count
model that allows to move around but
nothing nothing that's moved within that
he actually changes the view of the
amount of Heath within the that's why
the entire one protocol but it might
suddenly hit 11 e if inside its
internals ago and I'm saying the only
way that that is possible would be if
there was a bug in the lair one protocol
not within the there's 10 accounts all
of them have money except one of them
that's two and so but in terms of their
right to that that model within look
that that eath within the actual retired
emulator one system there's no there's
only ten so yeah there if you write
baddies you can have a terrible user
experience
you haven't been said it wouldn't
respect to layer one there are
interesting questions with respect to
like an exchange that my honor the I
think the way to think about it is to I
think that within the EU no longer
entities basically you have
representation
there's a disconnect there yeah it turns
out also that these is what we're
talking about
you can basically build a knee inside of
it there in one and that is actually
what these roll-up chains are in reality
because you know we have these balances
you go into an ee one of these rollup
chains and then you know inside of the
role of chain you might have coded it
wrong you might have you know something
you know someone some issue happen and
you go out and it turns out that there
is like a very very kind of one-to-one
correspondence however if you do it in
each one there are certain things that
you can know you of course we don't have
the scale and also it's much less
efficient but there is like a these
concepts are and it's about not not not
a special and they're not made like
insurance anyway I want how to know I
don't know what I'm trying to say but
thank you for listening
a human is less like one or two
does anybody that hasn't spoken yet want
to speak up their last chance
transformation
so my understanding about ease is very
rudimentary Daan's beacon chain
validators catch the bug
I keep there's a there's a bug he's an
EE which inflates
the rapt ether or the EE ether within
that contract shouldn't they just say
that oh there's a bug they're just
trying to inflate the their own intercom
thing and just not execute that that
that you state that's the proposes yeah
the beacon chain would catch its
validators don't actually have you know
go from 10 to 11
he's out of nowhere but if the EE you
know has a feel under its own state that
says wrapped either and it doesn't check
like guarantee that rep ether amount is
equal to the actual ether amount you
know in the beacon State field then that
E's you know rapt ether balance and just
a plate just like a contract anyone the
RAB ether doesn't have to be equal to
these are if there's book in the
contract okay so so beacon chief
elevators are not really looking out for
this these kind of issues
I'm learning the part of this may look
like part of the system is such that and
part of the backbone of the stateless
system the validators don't have to know
about they know that the
they know that given a block they can
execute on three state route the block
and post a group but they don't take
care about the internals to validate the
protocol and if they did this this is
someone likely to be much much less
scalable because they'd have to know
about arbitrary E's that existed so it's
kind of like definitely segmented in a
way that the validating participants
don't have to worry about the internals
and thus would not catch that like part
of the protocol is just execute the code
of the EE not to look at the he and be
like does that make sense it's just like
thank you in these one bucks you know -
just from DBM code thank you all right
buddy house that hasn't this is a
challenge and researchers here
[Music]
maybe one question adding to this so now
it has a deep develop but I know and you
have to trust like if you don't change
what I have to trust so they can help
our rookies yeah isn't that e if you're
gonna run any it should be well vetted
it should be before my verified and it
should be something that like makes
sense for you to actually operate I
expect a lot of activity that have
happened on large well vetted well to
Louise even if there's experimentation
with all sorts of others but also that's
it sounds cool I mean at the moment you
need to trust easier bought a know the
GBM me the EVM is execution apartment
it's a sensible you don't want to make
sure that the safe I'm just speaking to
like p.m. because right now there's a
bug right now in the UVM we might
socially coordinate to fix it
whereas if there was a bug in a random
EE we're very low likely wouldn't really
well
[Music]
great question so optimistic roll-up the
biggest thing that I like about
optimistic role is that we can have the
same developer experience like as as
similar and the kinds of changes that
Danny was talking about the block gap
you know block difficulty and you know
we have to change at mean you know
message sender we have to do a count
abstraction it's just some weird
requirements a couple things will change
but your smart contracts will work kind
of as they do today and then you know
basically would require forking or you
know forking waffle truffle whatever and
you know adding in the kind of little
changes but you would you know write a
smart contract deploy the smart contract
and you'd have a you know quote etherium
unstoppable smart contract you know in
layer two and then that's definitely
that's definitely a goal a goal for all
of us I have a question
absolutely yes so metallic has given me
and he gave me this like crazy
mind-blowing experience where he was
talking about he was like okay you can
think of optimistic Rollem as different
like execution zones so the the deeper
you get in this recursive optimistic
roll-up thing the more execution
computational that you have to do
because you have to do the the
optimistic role of at the bottom level
optimistic role of above an optimistic
world above about you know and then up
to the main chain so it's like the
massive amount of computation but that
gives you scale right because you're
you're doing more compute that means you
can scale further and so you can
actually you can even design a system
where you're like doing this
intentionally were you segmenting
different levels of you know here's the
deepest level and you know you you have
some some amount of death anyway I don't
think that that's like really that
practical I think will again like one
level deep and we'll probably get 90% of
the way there 99% of the way there and
then maybe throw another level because
we're like crazy but you know we can and
we could and that's kind of that's I
think the big thing that I was you know
I thought I really want to communicate
is that the EVM as it is is this like
Turing complete state machine and we
should all be like incredibly grateful
for the fact how general-purpose it
convenience so you can write these
amazing systems like execution
environments like optimistic rolled and
then you can write those systems inside
of themselves and this computation stuff
that we're dealing with is pretty wacky
so I I definitely definitely enjoy all
right I think
they're beautiful words general-purpose
computing as you may have noticed during
this session so very very early stages
that means opportunities to thank you
where we go with the system it also
means that like it's not ready for EM
user developers or end-user applications
yet
however I would encourage you to join
the conversation now I would encourage
you to explore these new tools and think
of ways that we used once
[Music]
[Applause]