let's begin and let's begin with
introducing ourselves so I'm Annette and
I'm helping out with operations and even
organizing of three magicians and I'm a
part of operations ring material
magicians and how I generate III
magicians it was actually very
interesting story that we started with
Jamie when I had a call with him like
back in like like beginning of the
summer I guess yeah and then Jamie kind
of saved me and he was like okay and I
was chained I see magicians because we
are corny article as well okay I'm so
sorry yeah so basically I just jointed
the a magicians at the beginning of this
summer and this is Jamie and he will
introduce its house I'm gonna trace
myself my name is Jamie and yeah i'm i
work in devops at the theorem foundation
and also volunteer for the etherion
magicians and we started me we started
the magicians it was about a year and a
half ago and it's been a great
experience but essentially it was
started to improve the process of
developing the technology together and
so often at our meetings we'll create a
circle and we'll have discussions and so
essentially I joined I started the
magicians with Greg Calvin so that we
could all have a better conversation as
a community is it storytime am I
supposed to tell a story okay so yeah
like we we we started with the proposal
we proposed to the community to form the
etherion magicians and then we started
having gatherings and we also created a
forum and ultimately it's to it's to
improve the technology by enhancing the
communication among groups in the
community because there's many groups in
this community we want them to come
together and and work things out and so
later we'll go over the schedule and we
can you can see how that's put to action
yeah but basically III magicians is a
forum where you can contribute to an
open source and you can discuss about
he's already IPS and you can meet the
community over there and we are
basically community of individuals who
are working on different parts of it I
am ether a magician can be anybody who
is basically one who wants to improve
each hiriam and who wants to join open
surgical system and who wants to work in
a in a working group that we call rings
who is actually on the forum on the
forum is anybody there is hearing
foundation researchers there are all
kinds of smart people or researchers
their car developers builders educators
and you can be a part of it a magician's
as well and they're actually algorithms
who are using III magicians forum as a
tool where they can meet the community
and discuss about a headpiece and decide
if the IP is going to and through the
process or not let me just explain you
order a eyepiece because I think that a
lot of you guys are new to cerium so a
happies are basically it's basically an
improvement proposal that anybody from
the community will ride a bee and like
yeah it's just technical a technical
thing an EIP is essentially a
specification and often they're very
complicated technical documents but you
can also submit a IPS for a governance
change or any change and so there's
different categories of VIPs and it's
totally open so you can propose any
change you want and people do people
propose very strange changes to the
protocol their proposed strange ERC's
that's absolutely welcome and if you
want to change the process if you don't
like how the process works you can
submit any IP that that is for that too
yeah yeah but if your magicians please
go discuss their and prove your ideas
because talking is great but proving
that your ideas works is way better and
that's what everyone any Theory make a
system lost when you are not just
talking a cheap posting on Twitter but
it's very ordinary coding and creating
the diagrams and prototyping oh wait yes
so exterior magicians is not only an
online community but we believe that
in-person meetings have way bigger value
for us for the community and we bigger
impact on the ecosystem so we are
organizing magicians gatherings we call
those major magicians gatherings
councils and that's basically where the
community will meet it's usually like
twice or three times a year usually
during some book chain weeks are some
bigger internet conferences and that's
where we are discussing about the main
problems in etherium and then ring
waiters are organizing ring meetings or
working groups on behalf of those so yet
to explain the the larger gatherings is
when we really pull the community and
find out what everyone wants to talk
about and that's what well I guess we'll
do a little bit of that right now in a
moment but rings which are basically
working groups will focus on a certain
topic so if there's anything that you're
particularly interested in and I think
everyone is everyone has something
they're going for here everyone's
working on something there's probably
others who want to work on that too and
so the magicians is very open about
helping you organize around that and so
we call those rings to fit in with the
theme of magicians but they're
essentially working groups and at the
end of today if you would like to come
back here you can have a meeting with
your group and perhaps announce it on
Twitter but not and try to actually get
some work done but we try to do these
meetings three the big gatherings three
times a year
and usually we're riding on the
coattails of some major event and that's
today we got a pretty good room today
at DEFCON so I thought you know I
thought it was really nice of them to
give us this space and and give us the
ability to to work things out as a
community so let's see what we got okay
yeah so this this is the schedule you
want to go to schedule so actually we
are on time yeah I don't know we got
scheduled this yeah definitely I've come
to this room later on and we are going
to have very interesting discussion with
ei which is it's an enterprise aliens
where we are going to discuss about how
aetherium enterprise aliens wants to
join a film community and how they want
to like connect with the same community
and I think that was a like spicy
question we got already of them so it's
gonna be very cold discussion and then
definitely don't miss out the ischium
road map sessions because that's
basically the most important in a theory
I make a system and that's probably the
most important like highlight of this
conference I think and if you if you are
individual and if you want to like get
some work done or if you want to like
contribute to each area make a system
definitely come to a working group or if
you have questions about a serum and you
want to discuss with us with magicians
then help them come to open mic on our
open community discussion yeah so that
11:00
it's 11:30 want to confirm that yeah
11:30 is the open community discussion
and so anything you guys want to talk
about will try to facilitate a
discussion in the circle here so really
encourage that I think a lot of people
you see it on Twitter people have
burning questions and they tweet at each
other and maybe it's not the best way to
communicate sometimes in your face to
face you can actually work things out
together and come to a resolution so we
really encourage you to do that and so I
think what we can do now is see if
there's any questions that people have
in
mind if they want to work on something
today and it's really hard because this
is the very beginning and so people
might not want to come forward in and
speak out but I guess we'd like to ask
is there is there anything that's that
you think needs the community needs to
work on is there anything you feel like
is unresolved in the community or about
the technology this you do have wow this
is great okay
I'm not surprised okay yeah yeah okay
yeah yeah hey I'm I'm Dominic I'm active
in one of the few rings for constraint
constraint devices and I I think I just
wanted to talk about that because that's
like my burning burning topic question
was about the technical topics we want
to improve in the community
anytime so I think just just having like
the Webster ego into all the devices in
the world and reaching small devices is
like extremely important for that and I
find that the community is not driving
towards it's very focused and like
desktop computers and miners in that but
not actually reaching out to to getting
everywhere where I think the original
vision of Webster II was so I'm super
excited about that
that part is driving it forward so if
anybody wants to discuss that later and
maybe there's more of the ring group
members here I haven't I think I've seen
Li Li Jie Li Jie before here but if
there's members here I would be happy to
talk to you and how we can improve that
with some AI peas yeah yeah I just think
instead of communities polarizing they
need to find ways to work together to
build human consensus so I think that we
all definitely because I voted I one
issue I think is really important is um
I feel like there's a lack of strategy
this is a this is a big thing for me I
feel like all the teams are just
independently working on their ideas but
there's no articulation of strategy and
I think this applies to a lot of the
core
the core groups and I think the
community is really into
decentralisation and and doesn't want
leadership as much perhaps but I think
people need leadership and I feel like
competitors to aetherium have an
advantage because they may have someone
who can articulate their vision and we
hear the vision about the technology but
I feel like it's lacking and strategy so
that's my that's my two cents anybody
else so I think just funding Collins and
a bunch of you guys from different
places and I think it's funding open
protocol design I mean we've seen it
with parity we're trying to do things
would get coined but a lot of the
projects that get funded are by VCS and
everything else and I know them I
represent a bunch of them and it's kind
of an issue because a lot of that goes
to people that aren't necessarily into
the ethos of the community so I would
like to just figure out more ways to get
funding back in the hands of devs that
are actually doing open protocol design
since I think that's what got us here in
the first place yeah definitely the we
we have a ring for funding and that's
often the ring that a lot of people get
involved with funding is such a huge
issue and I think certain projects are
over funded as we all know because of
these fundraising events and other
projects are just terribly underfunded
and I think that that could really slow
down the development of aetherium as it
was a great technology anybody else what
have you tweeted about recently that's
gotten you like tweet storms or added a
lot okay well I get to give you an
overview of how we how we run
discussions we're going to try to create
a circle here later throughout the day
we're going to try to arrange people in
a circle and often in these discussions
you'll have somebody who might show up
who's very technical
proficient and we want to make sure that
that they can be closer and and
participated in discussion but one ethos
of the magician's is open process and so
basically we want to make sure that like
say there's the core devs calls we want
to make sure that people can come into
those calls and participate in that and
I think in general the core devs have
followed really good approach for like
how to govern a technology without a
single entity in charge of the
technology and so in a way I consider
the cortes like a prototype magician
magician's group because they were doing
that without really being told or having
any any kind of like model or anything
it just kind of emerged that way is
there a lot of misunderstanding about
how the core devs function or is it is
it do you feel like in general the the
core devs are doing well with how they
function I think that it's actually good
question on ket holders and there's
actually Tim um I think how do you feel
about how the the core devs are managed
and how how does that you know could you
introduce a little bit about the core
devs from what you know so disclaimer
I'm not a core developer developer
period but I do attend a lot of the
calls because I'm a product manager and
I kind of have to I mean how the decor
devs work like I think it's a hard
question um yeah and you should know
yeah so I think obviously like it's
doing well a theorem still works we've
had a lot of upgrades and you know
they've generally worked so like from a
very base level like the protocol works
and the core developers kind of write
the code to ensure that there's
obviously a whole lot of challenges and
that's kind of what we're here to
discuss from trying to gather just like
sentiment throughout the community
because the core developers kind of see
one aspect
the protocol which is really kind of the
actual aetherium protocol themselves but
they're not as close to stuff at the
application level or at the mining level
so it's always like this challenge of
like how do you gather feedback from
these groups who are typically not that
people writing the upgrades but who are
affected by them and I mean desert is
there a process for that like how did
they receive feedback from from
different these different groups I mean
because I know that you can reserve on
the calls to be a part so there's no
official process and contrary to what
people say I think that's a good thing
because you if you have like an official
process it tends to get captured right
like people will like kind of hack it
and and so what typically happens is on
the the developer side if they have an
EIP they feel strongly for events
they'll come on the calls and they'll
kind of make a case for that and that's
very impactful so I think if you're like
an app developer or you know just
working on some part of aetherium and
you want to figure out what's like the
highest impact way to get in touch with
core developers and have like your point
of view be heard just coming on the call
or commenting on the agenda of the call
if you can't come those things tend to
have like a disproportionate impact just
example recently there was a 2200 which
changes some gas costs that's really
useful for Union swap and Hayden who's
the founder of uni swap came on the
calls I think or the verities commented
on the agenda that you know this is
something that's really valuable and
they're kind of counting on that and
there's no like direct voting or
anything but just that signal for like
an important project saying this matters
to us that's super valuable obviously
how did that happen um I didn't think
did they come into a call or how did how
is that kind of thing communicated today
to the group so you'd have to ask Hayden
because yeah III don't know what was the
process of like for them to come and
comment there from the Chordettes call I
I'm not sure if they just commented on
the agenda or on the call that's
something but basically if you want to
like make change or if you want to
interrupt this process just be active on
the internet or visit all Cardiff's key
my guests are coming there are comment
on the github issue so the agenda is
public there's a repo
there's the etherium repo on github
which is like github /e theorem I think
and then there's a repo called p.m.
therefore project management and all the
agendas and recordings and transcripts
for the call or available there and
anyone is free to add to add a comment
on the agenda so if you want to talk
about something you just post a comment
there I think
Hudson manages most of the agendas to
like you know go over to comments and
make sure that the they get addressed
does anyone have any questions about
about things in the community yeah I
think general question I was like how
you deal with it like the difference for
with other open source I think open
source is like the model that is theorem
is like comparing itself to you and a
lot of projects like when I when I like
to contribute when I contribute to like
an any open source project like let's
say Cassandra you go to the repo you you
make contribution to PR requests right
it gets in its may or not you know like
or not and they say it's not going in
but a few with aetherium and maybe
that's like this in technology in
general like how many PRS do I need to
do was like I mean I have Gath and I
have parity and I have like four others
like it's a realization
I need the political process to like get
it from the top down right so that
that's like how do you deal with that
okay so yeah how do you actually get a
change in aetherium you can't just like
submit a PR you don't know where to go
the number one place that describes this
process is a IP one so there's a website
and and it's on the if the repo as well
looks like there's an oops repo and an
oops website and the first one really
describes it's kind of the whole process
at length it's a bit of a doll read but
there's basically two important
distinctions are you doing something
that changes the consensus rules or not
if you're doing something that doesn't
change the consensus rule an example of
that is like ERC 20 that's usually kind
of easier typically the process there is
you'll just write here eeep get feet
from the community through something
like if your magicians and whatnot and
there's some couple time delays you know
between like you get your draft merge
then you get feedback and then it gets
like accepted and move to last call but
that's usually like a pretty like
easy-to-understand process and usually
if everything is right then you get
something that can accept it eeep and
and know what the the thing is no one's
or obligated to use your e right like ER
c20 no one forces you to use E or C 20
but there is a neat there that specifies
it so if you do want to use it it's like
documented the hard part is what if you
want to change like the consensus rules
right you want to decrease the block
reward you want to add an OP code stuff
like that that's what's called a core
EEP and basically the way that process
goes is you first submit a draft
typically you'll want to like kind of
research your idea cuz there's a lot of
quarries that have been submitted and
abandoned in the past so say you want to
add like an OP code or something like
that just trying to find out like did
people try to add this type of all code
in the past and and use that to kind of
feed into your your EEP once you have a
draft typically people will go on Alcor
devs to present it they get feedback and
then they'll be like discussions and
depending on how contentious your EEP is
you'll get like a commensurate level of
discussion so if you're saying like one
really good example there was an ape in
Istanbul it was about adding a chain ID
up code right super simple we to do high
value because smart contracts can know
what chains they're on and not pretty
contentious you know there's not really
much I can go back there so the person
wrote they came on the calls maybe a
couple calls you know back and forth how
do you do the details there was actually
competing EEP around there like do we do
a pre compiler and up code and so you
know they had those discussions and it
took a while the up code one and and
then once once say like there's like
this consensus amongst like gasps parity
and the other clients they'll all
implement it themselves so typically as
like an EP in each champion you only
have to provide like a single
implementation whether it's against get
parity whatever language you're
comfortable with and when that gets
accepted then all the other clients will
do it so you don't have to do like five
implementation
um obviously if it's more contentious
you know this process kind of falls a
part of it
and-and-and what you want to do is build
you want to build consensus within the
community and and that's a hard part
that I don't think just like there's no
like one way to do that right yeah you
basically you kind of have to chill your
EIP
yeah you have to create an EIP and get
support for it it's a political process
and people kind of it's not just
technical yeah people kind of frame that
as a negative part I think and it's true
done like it does add some burden and
it's you know it's not an easy thing to
do but at the same time you are kind of
changing your pretty hues like a pretty
big protocol so so there is always is
gonna be some kind of I guess threshold
you need the game you know you can't
just like change aetherium and no one
knows about it right and there's like
political process is kind of socializing
this idea that you have within the
community and there's no good way to do
that I don't think there's any
blockchain that has a good way to do
that because even like one big one big
alternative to this is like oh what if
you just have voting you know whatever
mechanism it devotes to pretty seems
instead you still have to do that
political process because you still need
to get people to like vote in favor of
your thing and so it's I don't think
it's that different than any other major
it's basically the creative process of
contributing to an open source you have
to be creative and you have to create
memes around your IP and make people to
get interesting into your IP to make it
happen and to make it get in into
ecosystem yeah did you did you have a
question yes it was it was kind of
answered there but I guess what are your
thoughts on you know some of the more
gridlocked issues how do you think that
people can reach consensus faster yeah
do you feel like it's slow is that or no
I don't know much about the process just
I know that like just hear from hearing
some people talk that like maybe they
think that certain people's arguments
aren't actually in good faith over
certain things or like okay like I think
also partially that's because over the
Internet I feel like people are less
that's trusting of people so like that
may be meeting in person or something
and seeing the other person's a real
human and hash it out so I was I was
thinking about this this week and I was
telling you this when I wasn't listening
to the first question I don't know if
there's been a blockchain that has had
like a major contentious upgrade that
has worked without splitting the network
right and and if there are examples
please send them to me I'd love to know
and try to understand them better
because in general like these networks
are open anyone can fork off right so if
something is contentious enough that
part of the community you know feels
like it's a hill they're gonna die on
then they can go and you know die on
that hill like for coffin and do that
and then the big question becomes what
becomes the canonical you know protocol
and not um but yeah I think if there's
one thing you could like add value to
etherium to resolve is like what's the
way we deal with contentious issues
without splitting the network because I
don't think any blockchain has figured
it out and even with Bitcoin right like
you had the user activated soft Fork
stuff like that like people kind of
revolted and when there were contentious
of grades so yeah I don't know but like
if we can figure this out it's really
valuable yeah yeah just to get the
biases out upfront I'm Brad Alsop with
canonize ER comm just so you know I'm
biased from the get-go but basically if
the last chord F meetings prog pal was a
big controversial issue and people
attended the meeting some people were
threatening that if we didn't do prog
pal there was gonna be a fork and other
people were saying well if we do do prog
pal there's going to be a fork but the
problem is is no one knows for sure and
so that's what we do it can either as
you as you build consensus you build and
track it it's basically a wiki with
camps and so people can join whichever
side you're in and in that which you
measure will improve and you can find
out what both sides want and you can
work to build consensus and it focuses
on what everyone agrees on and that's
what usually everyone misses because no
one talks about that but basically our
goal at Cannon Iser is building and
tracking and measuring consensus could
you pull that up on the screen here
briefly yeah yeah and let's take a look
at that
I think shortly we'll we'll break too
because we want to get started getting
ready for the EEA session but know that
at 11:00
thirty if you want to come back and
continue this discussion and whatever
you want to talk about often we we get
into the protocol but there's a lot of
vrc's and there's a lot of like you know
creative stuff happening with tokens
there's so many different kinds of IPs
and ERC is a type of VIP so here er c20
that's actually IP that's the probably
the most famous CIP so there's so many
different kinds of proposals and if you
want to come back at the for the open
discussion open mic we can discuss that
and we don't always have to drone on
about the protocol so there's many
different aspects to get into but I
would like to say if there's any final
questions we can talk about those and
then we got a wrap to get ready for the
enterprise session yeah I just wanted to
add that one of the other ways you can
really contribute to the discussions and
moving EIP s forward isn't just writing
your IPS in many ways we kind of drown
in proposals and ideas that people have
floating around one of the most valuable
things you can do is actually go to the
e ip's registry and and look through
what's there and start commenting and
discussing and reviewing a IPS before
they get scheduled for a hard fork
because the process that generally
happens is the ERP languages there for
years
eventually all core des decide to put it
into a into a hard fork and then Twitter
blows up and everyone says I didn't know
about this this thing called the meta e
IP you should look out for it that's a
collection of what's gonna going to go
all the yuppies are gonna go into the
next release yep and finding some of
these links as well all core devs calm
it's not an official thing but it links
off to some of these github things with
long URLs and the metarie IP is linked
there as well one thing you'll add about
these meta AIPS we do them well in
advance and by we I mean you know they
get done anyways and all the stuff
that's proposed for a future upgrade or
hard fork isn't it there so it's not
only like after the fact
oh hey the court has decided these five
things are in but if if you pull up like
the istanbul one which is like 1679 oh
right there it's linked Istanbul meta
EEP
and no ideas exist yeah so if you scroll
down scroll down so you see here just
like a whole list of withdrawn stuff
yeah
and they didn't start off as withdrawn
like a couple of months ago if you go on
like the diff and look at the original
version these were all kind of proposed
and then through discussions they kind
of got accepted or withdrawn and so this
is like a really good place there's one
that's already open for the next upgrade
after Istanbul which is like has a
placeholder name of burden but and I
don't know the number but so you can see
stuff that's already being proposed
there if you want to propose something
you just open a PR against that meta ie
IP and then people will kind of see you
want to propose that and if you have
strong opinions on anything that's
proposed like Adrienne said you can go
and share those opinions and that's
that's really useful too to build
consensus Thank You team
[Applause]
you