um yeah so this is the the middleware
and unchain services panel we've got a
great sort of brain trust on panel today
Christian lindquist as a crypto
financial engineer and decentralization
generous at consensus we've got Roman
Amanda Yale founder and lead developer
of ether camp and also lead developer of
the etherium Java client we've got
Joseph chow who is the lead developer
the BTC relay which we should had
primarily yesterday and Nikolai Michigan
I'm sorry pi PI / Miriam senior software
developer a quick left and the developer
of the etherium alarm clock which many
of you may have used and finally a
nickel a Michigan who is the lead
developer at make it out and also CEO of
Nexus developments so first of all doing
your very brief introduction but if you
could maybe go from from starting with
Chris give a bit more in-depth
information about you know what you're
working on a theory and what you do
thank you George yeah so my name is
Christine long fist I work at consensus
on various projects so one project is is
of course you port the digital identity
project that I presented about and some
other projects include the balance 3
this is a triple entry accounting system
also have been working on lower level
component like the light wallet it's an
hierarchical deterministic wallet that
can be used in the browser and also
transacted grid it's an energy related
project where participants in a an
energy grid can
can transmit energy tokens between each
other so yeah lots of cool stuff my name
is Roman a mandolin a I implemented the
Java implementation of material and now
we work in the ether camp on the tools
for developers to make a tearoom
development easy smart contracts easily
more understandable and it was actually
the talk i added in the morning and what
I didn't have time to announce and I
have time now remember this and yeah
it's kind of important it's hot ether
care I think you should try it and check
what we are trying to do there because
this kind of thing a connects the idea
of points that you get on the blockchain
and also a connection between developers
that doing stuff so we believe it's
important and I guess I have I will have
more time more or more time to comment
on different stuff on this panel so cow
i implemented this BTC relay I gave a
talk about yesterday but basically it's
a smaller version Bitcoin block chain in
an theorem contract that can be used to
verify Bitcoin transactions and it's a
key part to being able to build a trust
lyst way to get Bitcoin and ether swap
so if someone wants to buy some ether
just using bitcoins it's a trust lyst
way to do that so BTC relays a first
part to it my name is Piper Miriam and I
am the author of the etherium alarm
clock it is a marketplace for contracts
or people to schedule contract function
calls at a specified time
future aims to be a trust 'less service
on the blockchain my name is Nikolai
most of you probably know me as a lead
developer of maker as also introduced a
CEO of Nexus what that is is we
basically started creating enough
valuable stuff that we wanted to
capitalize on it sooner so that we can
get done sooner and to do that so we
needed to create a traditional company
so that we could interface with the real
world but that's still separate from
maker which is its own independent
decentralized organization great I mean
yeah I'm the external relations director
athyrium I work very closely with a lot
of the community of metal of you before
online it's it's great to see you all
here so to start with the questions of
the panel I think a good one we talked a
lot today about some of the technical
side of etherium so what I like to ask
is what are the non technical challenges
associated with you know building on
chain services on top of etherium but
beyond beyond the actual the technology
itself and start with maybe Chris sure
so I think one of the interesting things
about about the blockchain is that in
order to have a public blockchain you
have to have a kind of an economic
protection this also relates to what
what Vlad was talking about when he when
he described Casper so so you often have
systems where you want it to be up and
running but you need an economic
incentive for for people to use it and
and so I think so both both Joseph and
Piper's projects are examples of this
where where you have and you have a
system that you know you need to decide
technically but then you also need to
design the economic models that will
cause that system to to work as intended
so maybe yeah maybe Joseph can
follow up sure yet yeah one of the main
challenges less of a technical nature is
the yet the crypto economics of the
system and yeah being able to
incentivize the community to do certain
things because this code is trustless
and fully decentralized so it's just out
there and it can't operate on its own
without outside interactions so you have
to be able to find a reasonable way to
incentivize the community and it's a
tricky challenge and it's part of the
overall etherium experiment that we'll
have to see how how well we can create
them plans for incentives to use the
actual system I think you can actually
add to that a little bit one of the
tricky parts is currently is coming up
with a I guess a fee schedule or
whatever you want to call it that that
incentive that motive eise's motivates
the outside actor to do the thing you
want them to and I don't think anybody
in this room can say with any certainty
what one ether is actually going to be
worth in a year or ten years and so
fixing coming up with reasonable prices
is that will stand the test of time is
non-trivial right now so hyper maybe you
can describe the your alarm clock
service and how the this economic
considerations fit into that um it's a
interesting problem and I do not claim
to have it fully solved but that's why
I'm iterating on it so essentially any
person or contract can essentially
schedule a function call that is
actually created as its own standalone
contract and
what the alarm service does is it
essentially sets up a marketplace where
somebody on the outside of the network
can monitor and see that there is a call
scheduled to that wants to be executed
soon and when the time comes initiate
that transaction it flows through the
alarm service execute the call and they
get paid some amount and essentially
it's figuring out what is that amount
that makes sense for them to get paid is
it one either is it a percentage of the
gas costs is it an open marketplace that
allows people to specify whatever prices
they would like so some of those
economic incentives are are I don't want
to say unsolved problems but I don't
think we'll know if they're solved until
we start seeing a lot of traction and
usership on these sort of services one
thing I'd like threat do it oh yes so
the previous talk one of the earlier
talks was just with with Simon and he
was mentioning about tokens so
definitely tokens is going to be
interesting in this part right now
neither of us are implementing tokens
but tokens was one of this one of the
plans that we we did consider and just
to throw out this idea out there there's
there's there's two variations so one is
that one is that the let's say that the
one who helps the service gets get some
tokens and then the one who uses the
service they would get charged those
tokens that's a basic that's a basic
system so they might people who helped
the alarm clock they'll get alarm clock
tokens and if you wanna use the alarm
clock you have to spend alarm clock
tokens that's a simple one but one
interesting idea that i do want to
mention out there though because other
people might have ideas as well is so
you still give out your
your contract tokens for the people who
helped the service but then for the
people who use it you may be able to
charge them actual ether and then that
actual ether just goes into a pool and
then all the people who have your
contract tokens they can cash out and
then get a percentage of those actual
ether that's in that pool so right now
if there's only like two people who are
helping the alarm clock service or
something and they both own fifty
percent of the tokens then then whoever
gets whenever fees are starting to be
generated once one of them catches out
they'll get fifty percent of the ether
fees at that time but maybe if they
think things are going to still grow in
the future they might actually just hold
on to those tokens it gets a little
similar to Bitcoin and I think it's
quite an interesting idea because it
rewards the early users quite a bit it
might be very easy right now to get
those contract tokens and in the future
if the middleware service gets used a
lot then there could be a lot of fees
generated to reward the early early
helpers of the community the question of
what gives you value to any token and
maybe I'll comment I want to add that we
see in the old I'll coin market that
only speculation does not give value for
a long-term right because you remember
this time when there was a thousands of
alcohols coming out each day and nobody
from them survived so Allah to you we
have very easy way now to create a
decentralized token right we just need
to find a good way to tie it to a
service that's going to be valuable for
user and loose will give I believe so I
believe in this model and the bills will
give value to a token and does it does
not matter how the token is going to be
distributed it may be can can help or
harm a little bit but this is not the
main
a value giver here and I think humble is
the only one who did it by now to give a
value for real token on a tea room on
the Tea Room chain and I do believe we
are going to see very soon in close
months more more services like this I
don't know if I mentioned a hotdog eater
came so it can be an option for this
service okay culturally brilliant so
guys move on to another question there
are some concerns about centralization
risk with with middleware and with
untrained services what are your
thoughts as individuals in terms of you
know mitigating those issues and I mean
structure there might be some instances
where we need centralization there's no
other way but were your thoughts are
mitigating that start with Joseph sorry
yeah yeah hello me today how we
committee ated yeah so I think yeah yeah
i saw the question and it's to me it
seems a little less less of an issue
with these fully decentralized
middleware services because they're
they're all if they're there trust lists
so if they're trustless then you don't
really mind if everyone is using the
same contract let's say yet you know in
my case i provide like Bitcoin block
headers and prove you know proofs that
that I Bitcoin transactions so it to me
it doesn't seem seem that of an issue
sure paper
I think that there's a that there's kind
of a line that falls between the
services that we can use the term
trustless for and services that are not
necessarily entirely trust lyst I've
thought about my service a lot and the
conclusion that I come to repeatedly is
that whether or not it's alarm clock or
something else if it's a non-chain
service for doing the thing that alarm
clock does it is more powerful and more
secure the more people who are using it
I don't think that that rule applies for
everything out there I think there will
be things that function very well with
many little individual pods doing them I
think the risk comes when there is a
very fundamental service on Shane that
is not open that is not justice and that
does grant the power to some for-profit
entity to make arbitrary changes to it
at which point we have rebuilt the
current model of the internet which yeah
I think it's I think it's important to
note that on etherium it's you have the
ability to create the whole spectrum of
applications from fully trust list which
which is what Joseph Piper and and also
parts of maker has this property but
also you can have a fully administered
smart contract that's that's controlled
by by a central party and and it's
interesting because you can have a
continuum of this so you can have a
let's say a a smart contract that needs
say a quorum of voters to vote on
changes so that's you know not really
fully trusted but still community-based
or you can have something like a
centrally controlled contract where you
have a time limit
so that if I say I control it i can say
i'm going to make a change it's written
in the contract that this change is
going to take two weeks and if any of
the users don't like it they can you
know they can move they can take their
ether out and so that you know leaves me
still in control but there are there are
limits like a practical example this is
maker it's going to depend heavily on
price feeds which are a great example
pretty much something up in which has to
be centralized for now that's what we
there's no fast decentralized Oracle
solutions that exist but we use the same
strategy it's like the maker coin or
shareholders are like the admins they
have full admin rights but they have a
time delay and the only you know it's in
their best interest to get the bet you
know the best new feeds into their into
their system no one no one's going to
abandon the system when they see a
change a positive change like that and
then if there's a negative change where
its suppose they wanted to replace it
with only one price feed that they
controlled that gives everyone time to
exit the system and so I think yeah
we're going to see this pattern where oh
there's no trust less solution yet so
we're not trust lift but then we can
plug it in and lock ourselves out and
then we're fully trust Lassalle so yeah
it's a great example and andromin you
you also have a price feed during down
the price fit as an example of what
possible to be able to be done but I
want to touch this question when in
general form because we have this
decentralization movement for a good
reasons because we have seen a lot of
damage done by central government
central finance institutions and I
believe we will see more damage over
next time but there is people that kind
of losing the point and trying to
eliminate the entrepreneur from his idea
yeah because you need somebody to
develop the service you want somebody to
deliver
more features right so it's kind of your
interests he not every service if
somebody a standing in the middle and
care to develop more about this as he
he's evil right sometimes I see that
people don't see this this difference
this was my point should contribute I
think that I completely agree like
nobody's going to build these things for
free or at least nobody's gonna go all
of them for free my alarm clock pays me
when you use it you can kind of now
choose what you want to pay me but so
it's not like these things get developed
for free what I what I hope is that we
land in a world where we're one we still
don't have to explicitly that trust that
under the hood it does what we want it
to there we can look and see that
there's a built-in time delay that if
you can't just pull it out from under me
that you that I at least get to see it
coming and and and bail if I don't want
to be part of it and similarly the the
model of you know sort of delegating the
okay I want to you know I'm going to
maybe put a name registration in front
of my contract so that people can
upgrade but i'm going to not give myself
any control over that i'm going to let a
multi sig of like seven trusted
community members be the either voting
body for that so there's it's a spectrum
and there's intermediate steps talking
about solutions I I do think the rules
should be set up front right so if I
build the service and you step into my
shop right eventually speaking and I say
no I control everything guy I should I
should tell it right and I should tell
you have right to do please listen death
and okay we are on blockchain everything
is transparent and I'm so not saying
that I'm doing this business but maybe
somebody will but but this rule should
be set and should be very well
clear and it can be done it's not evil
right it's not evil it's just
transparent and and the mutual agreement
between people except the point that we
can choose to not use services who won't
post their source code that i would
encourage everybody in this room to
rigorously advocate for open your source
and show us what it does because without
that you're just operating the same
model that when you log into Facebook
you don't know if they're showing you
negative things to see how it affects
your mood so yeah I guess that's a
really interesting point actually you
seeing a lot of new services being
developed on top of etherium it's very
difficult to know whether you can trust
that service what do you think the
community or several apps groups to deck
together could do to help users
understand as to whether or not a smart
contract or a non-chain service will do
what it says on the tin there's nobody
else is about so I think what Piper was
saying is vitally important to have the
source code available and I think we can
utilize own chain services like
registries and app stores perhaps that
can unload together everything related
to the to the DAP and perhaps tie the
the source code and also the front-end
code maybe put it on a Content addressed
storage system like like I PFS source
warm and then anchor that that hash in
in the blockchain so I think it's
extremely powerful in in terms of a
secure delivery system for for you know
not just apps but applications in
general to have this you know trusted
database the blockchain all the all the
updates from the developer
is automatically signed because it is on
the blockchain and we also have you know
the hash of of everything in the DAP
checked automatically so so that you
know we don't have all of the tools
right now to like have the entire thing
packaged up but we've heard multiple
talks this week so far already on on
those things are coming so we're going
to have immutable applications or fully
verifiable applications but that doesn't
actually immediately help the end user
and I think that you're going to see a
business model show up here where I you
know right now the internets full of
little stamps that people put on their
website that say how secure they are and
they're all utterly meaningless or at
least almost all of them are and those
don't have to be meaningless in the
etherium world there will be trusted
verifiers that do truly audit and and
check and see that things are do what
they say they do and I can absolutely
see companies paying for that service
and those things actually having meaning
whereas rather than being empty yeah I
think I think this might actually be an
opportunity for people who are making a
like mr. or a competitor to myst is if
you also maintain like a database of
formally verified contracts and the UI's
that go with them I think maybe the
browser or the wallet / browser creators
or the other people who're going to push
that forward I think Alex founder
Sundays early demonstrations of you know
what he was looking to do with mist and
he had a traffic light systems are in
the top left corner there will be sort
of a red orange green color associated
with the application depending on you
know maybe different groups of order to
date those groups themselves could have
reputation and dependent on their
reputation in the community you could
give different weights to how there is
those applications are sort of viewed
and it makes it very easy for average
users to be able to understand as to
whether or not the smart contractors is
safe or not
yeah good women you talking most of the
time about technological progress but
there should be some moral and political
problems because we didn't see it yet we
don't have enough experience about
totally free market not uncontrolled and
cannot be controlled and decentralized
without any central authority it it's a
it's kind of looked like a mess but it
will be worked out because we are
talking about mutual agreement right so
we just need to study how the deuce
deuce are so maybe we serve across set
up front or something like this but we
just really didn't see enough legitimate
markets coming out in this space and
operating cover over time and and
building value to see how how
decentralized we just wish right this
movement of the centralization always
talking about okay how how this should
work how this is the only way it should
work but what we just don't don't have
experience yet to say okay in this case
you do this dead and in this case you
you take a lawyer and then you do this
and IDK and how the contract I'm talking
about contract between people rising not
not not approaching contract right if
how this contract should be said without
central authority because if you look in
now in any you know in the jurisdiction
system any contract somehow assume that
you are going to court in some Wendy
Wendy problem arrives so we are not
working this way right we want something
girls and we just need to you know it's
not the technological problem it's more
a phallic a philosophical a political
problem that i believe the community
will work it out that means some time to
anything else you guys watch editor so
another interesting thing I guess the
Telex definition of a blockchain get
something along the lines of though you
always be able to view the current and
previous states
of of the blockchain itself now that
comes with some really positive
attributes but also as well there could
be potentially an impact on privacy do
you see privacy as a challenge when you
are building a theory aman jain services
chris campos yes very much so it is
currently very hard to to have private
transactions on any current block chain
so from what I hear zero cash is soon
coming out and that will kind of be the
high water mark for for private
transactions but unless we have that
level of and see case nor oxen and an
advanced math it's this this remains a
big problem and and it's it's come up in
in a lot of the discussions that
consensus has with people who say you
know this block chain stuff is great i
really want to use it but you know all
my competitors can see my transactions
and what are we going to do about that
so i think there is it's a challenge
that there might be ways of obfuscation
transactions but it but that is often a
a trade-off that the user has to do work
etc so yeah I think this is this is one
of the big challenges and hyper I'm
really hoping to see it's something that
I've put a lot of thought into but just
don't have the bandwidth to start in 2
i'm really hoping to see transaction
occupation with very low overhead show
up as a non-chain service in a utterly
trusted manner the ability to send
transactions anonymously effectively on
etherium would be a pretty powerful tool
to handle one type of privacy which is I
don't want Amazon tracking everything
that I bye but the other type of privacy
obfuscating you know I we want to do on
chain identity but I don't necessarily
want to put my email address on there in
the public because of whatever privacy
reasons and there's a lot of hand waving
about you know encrypted Bob's of data
and we put them on I PFS and we you know
let so-and-so read them but there's a
lot of unsolved problems there and it it
is not a trivial problem to solve I
think we're totally up for it but it's
hard there's things you can't build
right now anyone else got anything to
add on that well I was coming to the
fertilization always when touching
privacy I I always trying to say that
the privacy should be by choice because
user definitely have something to be
rewarded by putting his identity out
there because we want to get to this
world when your reputation from airbnb
can be moved to oburg can be used in
taking a loan taking the credit
something like this so we need to find a
way like not radically that nobody knows
what's going on is it completely a
completely I said there's no people
there like I feel sometimes people
talking about this and they just want to
eliminate the people I completely so I
don't think we really one bit we want
people to make their choices and I think
it in some way in bitcoin world it is
possible right because if you don't want
people to know about your account that
it is your account you can do it and now
what if people say yeah but we can track
you and we can do that there is there is
way to go around this right and you know
this so also on material but we are
talking about next next wave of
blockchain applications
their identity and reputation is going
to be very well valuable so what is the
reputation reputation is a historical a
tracking of value trading this is the
exact definition of reputation right
this is what give you the reputation and
you want reckon so if you say no I don't
want to put my identity there so how we
track your repete how you gain your
reputation so we need to remember this
trade of here is though yeah I like it
there's also a case of selective
disclosure so maybe my whole history is
not on the blockchain but it's it can be
yeah like I can use anonymous
identifiers at each trade and then when
I want to select selectively this close
to someone I can I can tie those
together through digital signatures so
that that might be on another another
way I choose insecurity it's not you you
should not give it to anybody about to
give it to everybody right yeah like
something like that sure so that's a
really interesting topic in itself and I
think definitely something worth
discussing is there isn't really i mean
i think consensus is looking at some
interesting things in terms of
reputation but perhaps you know what are
your ideas and however what reputation
should look like on the etherion block
chain and and how'd you that will change
the way that your your services that
you've created how about how people
interact with that once reputation is
sold versus done i think that the key
yeah i think okay neutralize you the
Gipper okay whatever you say is I
actually I thought about this a lot and
the conclusion i keep coming to is
they're talking about reputation like a
metric with one number just doesn't make
sense it's to contextual and it you
can't just one number like your
reputation is 100 that doesn't make
sense you have to have it yeah okay well
that's all I want to say yeah for
anybody who
doesn't follow exactly what that means
right now when you look around at things
like reputations and ratings you know
each movie has a single number
associated with it all of those things
there's this like global number that we
pretend that we can prescribe the how
good a movie is or or whatever else we
want to rate and I completely agree with
this that that that that rating does not
it's contextual it's contextual about
who your friends are who your social
community is where you live all of those
things can play into the context of
determining how trustable you are
because trust is not a global trust
reputation whatever you want to call it
all these different metrics but there's
no single number because my friends can
trust me more than utter strangers in
all kinds of things because the chances
that i'll miss behave with other
strangers are higher than with people
that are in my clothes community so
trust is very much a function of context
absolutely I agree with this it's not a
number it's a set of numbers so it's a
set of numbers and everybody reacts
differently to the set of numbers yeah
like if I have I don't know I say five
keys so I have five in my reputation in
the key to section so somebody will say
hey this is great guy he said kids i
said no i hate heads right so maybe he's
not so good so this is the idea the idea
is you keep trick that the the history
of doing value in some way but people
will take it differently is there'll be
there will be like a popular reputation
functions so like each individual user
chooses how they interpret the data but
there's a couple of ones that are pretty
good for many cases talk and standard we
need to see how this reputation moves
between the dubs it's also theoretically
too complex for the current like limits
of the block chain right now
I'm speaking outside of my level of
expertise but the the math involved in
doing those contextual computations is
likely above the PI million gas limit
that we're currently limited by so
chances are this is something that's
going to have to evolve over time as the
network speeds up and hopefully we
achieve you know that that scaling
promise the problem is that you don't
have enough services the trail operates
over time and it's kind of a little
different services how can the people
using the senses how they want to lose
reputation from place to place it's also
touching the dedication of agreements is
with the sheriff and the guy who gave
the service so yeah oh so you just need
time to see these services being mature
and operate over time and then sharing
this information because the
infrastructure is they're right but you
need just to study how it operates for
real is that the more trust list stuff
we build the last data we have for
reputation later price it's possible yet
definitely that will have middleware
services that are trustless and they
don't they don't care on the input side
who sends it input so right now I think
at least with VDC really doesn't care
who sends it headers and probably the
same thing with the alarm clock doesn't
care whoever is a triggering calls for
other contracts so so there's also a an
interesting aspect of crypto economics
which is how to build system that is
independent of reputation and so I think
reputation will play play a huge role
but there's also
mechanisms like security bombs etc that
can give a rational incentive to to some
unknown individual to act in a certain
way so so that's kind of the you know
how to deal with entities without
reputation but but I I agree that
reputation is a big thing and I think I
believe so christopher Allen said that
we we want to own our own identities or
we don't necessarily own our reputation
it's it's given to us in in the context
that way that we exist in and so that
that also relates to to moving
reputation from one surface to another
and you know that might be that probably
makes sense for for similar services but
others might be too far away to to move
basic as interesting as well if
reputation has a value can you buy and
sell reputation your things like that I
think I like the idea of you having many
many metrics which will contribute to a
reputation score and depending on the
environments or the situation the
metrics have different weights that
could work pretty well so we talked a
lot yesterday about scalability you know
working towards greater transactional
volume that sort of thing talked about
metallics sharding and you know how a
theory was going to grow in the future
have you guys put thoughts into you know
how your services you've created how
they will change what they will become
as athyrium begins does that start
scaling in a big way durante the first
women I think we do was developed in a
very interesting way it was a oh it was
nine POC it was mindful of concept who
was following so all the ideas and all
what you see now came out from the field
from from going and trying and going
back to the
to the blueprints and see how we can
change it so I think this is the best
way to do stuff to go and iterate and it
I believe it's not you it's it's already
been proven by people doing successful a
successful startups so I think all these
ideas that metallic and blood and Greg
are talking about we need simulations we
need a linear pull of concepts we need
to see how it works and then see if it
really a proven mathematically so it's
the only way we can really see this this
stuff works and can be adopted because
now it works we don't want to harm it
right we want to see how we move from
point A from one point to point B safely
right so maybe this is my master what
the current gasps limit is a is sort of
a good metric for where that limit shows
itself it's really easy to write a
contract that takes up three million gas
just to deploy it it's a big contract
but it's an easy limit to hit and and
similarly it limits how much you can do
in one step so a lot of those scaling
issues are theoretically going to open
up some you know increase that ceiling
by some amount which will increase the
overall ceiling for how big apps can be
on some level right now there is a
artificial ceiling that you can actually
hit pretty easily even when you divide
most of your code out into into
libraries and deploy your code
separately and essentially deploy a
shell contract that calls library
functions you can still hit that pie
million gas limit pretty quickly so
companies and entities who are building
middle you know they're not that complex
but they're complex in terms of the
example contracts that we see all the
time and that sort of thing so it's very
easy to find your way to that pie
million
gasps limit right now and that's one of
the ways that the scaling problem shows
itself I think I think that right now
there's not really any way to
deliberately make your contracts future
proof against like design decisions
related to scaling so they're either
going to do it in a way where it's
perfectly seamless and the sharding
works really well and all your current
contracts can keep running with no
problem in which case no one is affected
or it looks sort of more like a you know
main chain side chain type deal email
you have shards in which case you better
hope your profit per transaction is very
high or else you're going to be squeezed
out I think the biggest risk there is
data feeds like how are we going to pay
to get continuous data onto the block
Shane once the cost per transaction is
really high because rabbit the prices
and entertaining so it really sort of
estimation I don't remember father it's
a sound 15 assets there if i remember
correct this do the sort of estimation
now how how much does it cost I we okay
with this like we can we can hold it for
for some time until we have mechanism to
decide about the block block size of the
gate can forget nobody trying to change
this right we can learn it's a minus a
vote to increase or decrease this the
swimming and I do agree i could use
bigger larger a gas limiter block we we
want heated this limit but with some of
halton bugs and did some instruction so
if this is kind of issue let's do it
let's lot of these like people who who
has miners who mine stuff maybe we
should a token can talk about this and
and see and try to see if this mechanism
really works because it's built into the
system Jesus
and another point about yeah the scaling
issues really yeah upgradability and of
contracts so again since these are fully
decentralized once we've deployed it
even we don't have the original
developers don't even have an ability to
change it so if there are issues we
really have to design it in certain ways
so that we can have a new contract that
will still implement what we want but
there's a lot of challenges with this
future proofing and upgrade ability of
contracts one of the best practices we
heard in the morning earlier was
exposing your data so that you could
definitely have contracts that you can
create and in a way provide an upgrade
for that and definitely I think for
something like an alarm clock that could
work very well with the relay that I
I've been building it's less clear
because the data itself is what you can
charge people for and you know way you
need to charge people something so that
you can give the community some reward
for helping the service so
upgradeability and future proofing is
quite hard does anyone have any other
ideas about it so i think it's it's
important to remember that athyrium
right now is is very very small I mean
Roman hunt you have the statistics where
it's like 3,500 contracts right now and
so when I when I think about something
like digital identity you know if we
want to create digital identities for 4
billion people which is what facebook
has right now you know that amount of
you know data on the blockchain and
having them all some transactions
between each other it's it's just you
know it's totally unfeasible without the
scalability so I think you know we we
should keep this in mind
but at the same time you know design
things that work in the in the
small-scale to begin with and but still
have an eye towards that you know that
this is going to have to scale sure so I
think we're running out of time it's
always to finish studying maybe one more
question with an answer each and then
maybe take some questions from the
audience so the final one was you have
things like oracle eyes which allow the
ethereum blockchain to effectively talk
to the real world what do you think that
you know we could be doing better to
allow the etherion blockchain to
communicate with the real world and
center for the real words communicate
with the etherion blockchain going to
start with that nickel and there's the
two ways one way as we need a very good
data feed infrastructure and the other
way is we need like legal we need like a
framework for people to be able to
define things legally in terms of smart
contracts so like right now slock it
works because it's a physical device you
don't need a lot but there's any many
similar things where you are only
reading data off the block chain but
that's like you're supposed to interpret
that as meaningful and so we need like a
legal framework like I I think that
there are going to be many many bridges
that will get built but haven't yet
though haven't been built yet that
bridged the real world and the block
chain and i mean it's its data feeds its
oracle eyes letting you you know hold
data in from from the internet it each
of these ads a another layer to the
foundation and and they'll come slowly
and they'll show up over time but
there's a lot of them still to be built
and before they're built any many of
them rely on others to be built first so
we're going to have to build that
foundation up a little bit at a time I
think I Creek crypto economics is
with the incentives that we've been
discussing that's one key thing that
will really help as we learn about that
more so when bitcoin it started out
right at 50 bitcoins in the first four
years and then 25 decreases by half
every four years so it's like that
formula right now seems to be working
for for Bitcoin but it's these kinds of
things that would be good to UM try to
see if we can understand more sure
really yeah well I just got new mic so
maybe I should repeat for the comments
that I said before yeah now know you can
hear me okay cool so yeah okay I'll be
serious and I'll say this is exactly why
a reconstructing this hot dog eater cam
and no no this time for serious and the
point is this we see we are talking all
the time about the same ideas in the
terminal in the decentralization warlike
reputation tokens and identity and it's
kind of okay we kind of understand how
it should work but we want people to
move forward and we want place and stage
for people to communicate their ideas
say much better in the development stage
and this is exactly what we're trying to
do with trying to put developers in some
place we want them to get rewarded we
also invited judges from from the
community to watch a after them a doing
stuff and the comment and give them a
likes and kudos for good ideas and this
way we live it that ideas that we don't
even think about them will pop up on the
surface this is exactly why I'm crying k
to market it's all so bad okay thank you
Chris yeah so well I guess getting data
into the blockchain this is all about
Oracle's and and I think Nicolai had a
good point about how how do we
incentivize Oracle's like if if
Bloomberg provides an Oracle feed for
instance
a data feed what's you know is there a
business model around that you know
maybe you can charge contracts for
getting this data etc so so that's an
interesting discussion and the other way
you know I think it's locket this is a
is a interesting example where you have
autonomous devices reading the
blockchain and changing state I'd like
to see that explored more yeah cool so
yeah that's that's like to add go ahead
Bible time soon we're going to see a
trust list service of some kind that
somebody biltz that gets filthy rich on
accident and has just tons of money
locked up in it that nobody can get at
and that thing is going to stand there
as like a beacon to people who want to
make money making these kind of things
and once we see that happen it's going
to provide some huge motivation for
entrepreneurs investors people who make
things to to make more of those but not
in a way that accidentally locks all the
money away yeah for sure yeah I mean I
think looking back to maybe some older
programs that we used on computers
twenty fifteen years ago that could be a
good place to start they're very simple
they're very useful that's when you know
that would be a good place to look so I
think we've sacrificed the other
microphone but does anyone have any
questions perhaps isn't can anyone
please sir could you could you take this
to the gentleman over there or ticker
sorry we'll take one question I think we
run out of time but sir yeah my question
is that does this decentralized nature
of etherium mean that any business that
stood up with a business model to
facilitate the interaction between two
parties will eventually be driven by
competitive forces to a point where
essentially the profits approached zero
over time
I race 20 go ahead um so I the response
i give to this usually that there's like
two types of middlemen and one of that
like basically they can either be
contributing value by basically doing
research so basically so a good example
is like how credit works I don't think
normal credit like on collateralized
credit it's going add to that the fact
that the code for example if you have an
algorithm or anything that is powering
your contract is open so yeah reality
out someone can take you whatever it is
that you come up with and so it just
depends on whether the middleman is a
real middleman or if he's actually
contributing some value and you'd be
surprised by like how many just
middlemen are actually you know they're
making your transactions more efficient
by being there I guess I was getting
like the feedback of like each
individual team member you don't mind so
I need I need to do to understand
question but if you can explain it I
guess what I said is that because xperia
ms decentralized over time as you build
services that merely facilitate the
interaction between two parties that
over time other people would join in to
provide that same service a little club
you this is this is essentially as many
as many people to run a it doesn't mean
that companies go out of business
because there's like lower and lower
transaction costs it just means that it
takes fewer and fewer people to run
giant giant things that that like I
don't know if you think of a company as
a pyramid in the more area under it the
more people there are built up in there
is that any theory and that can get like
a lot lower and a lot fewer people
involved and so well the transaction
costs got lower and lower and lower
there's still some level of I will pull
in enough off of the service to pay for
the continued development and
improvement of it so it doesn't mean it
goes out of business it might mean that
we see much smaller entities despite
doing huge things Joseph you'll see more
like more companies while choosing to
become more profitable by shrinking so
building 492 points that Nikolai and
Piper
mentioned i think my economic intuition
is that it's going to if you want a
single number it's not going to be zero
I think that the number that it's going
to reach is going to be like the the gas
cost times the gas price and the gas
cost is of the person who is helping the
blockchain service so in the case of the
alarm clock so whoever triggers the
alarm call they have a certain gas costs
and the gas price and so unless they're
really providing any value in the middle
things look like they're going to drive
to that limit and in in the real a case
that is going to be the cost of
submitting a block header to BTC relay
so I think there's always a cost to it
but it'll come down to that yeah so I
just want to be sure the question was if
I'm going to be successful on the
blockchain somebody will come and clone
it because it's all open and and we'll
try to kick me out of the business right
this question I guess what it is is if
somebody puts in the time to come up
with some sort of mechanism to facility
a service i think we example risk if I
want to have a model to assess risk and
I put that model on how to assess risk
on the blockchain and that is my
competitive offering quote unquote in
the case of example of a bank or are
some sort of a creditor and that
exposure in itself means that my value
add is that algorithm and yeah I think I
think there is a big more better than
Scott last sentence we gotta finish up
to this so i already cut your food okay
i think there is more than one then they
caught part of the business I think over
time you build your name so it's kind of
what's proven on the internet right
people trying to copy over people trying
to copy Airbnb actually every successful
service the success wasn't so big so
it's much more than just a contract it
just more than transparent contract
because you can don't build trust with
your customers so I believe in this
model this is like okay try to compete
now
great I think we have to leave it there
unfortunately the builders yes yours one
thing go to heart attack dog yo Dawg
camp haha yeah we love them