oh thank you all for attending yes oh
maybe we start off with what you know
what were introduction on what we're
researching what were you know
enthusiastic with plasma and then maybe
we could do another round on like
actually before that we can maybe like
give a I think it would be fun actually
to start off with maybe talking about
what one thinks are good
e applications of plasma and what it's
good like what what it could be good for
what it could maybe not be good for and
what one is working on when it comes to
specifically applications and that way
there's some context mentioned there
okay well I'll just first say what I
think are good applications of plasma
because I think that's sort of the
interesting thing here obviously
payments in exchange or like the plasma
application at least right now it's sort
of the the thing that's most you know
useful or novel but and and kind of
makes use of this blockchain as a value
store slash exchange thing but it's
other stuff that I'm really excited
about is gaming in general it's it's one
of these things that brings people in
and it's simple it's not threatening you
know I'm willing to put $10 into a video
game and I don't really care if I never
play that video game again and and you
know I that $10 is just gone that's
that's fine and so the same doesn't
apply if we're talking about payments I
expect that my bank app doesn't lose my
money but I have different expectations
on games and so I think I think games
are actually quite feasible today with
plasma as
lume has just made very clear and I
think that people should start looking
at that right now I'm highly interested
in getting a sort of plasma kind of like
an SDK setup so that people can just
build these games without really
understanding what the underlying plasma
does sure I'm David I feel like with
plasma in its current state it's
excellent for supporting applications
that don't require an incredible amount
of interaction with like the rest of the
like the loop chain ecosystem just
because of the way things are right now
with the food chain having custody it's
super great for modular modular systems
and then also I would say I'm very
excited about the potential for plasma
chains to kind of work like down the
road they can be more private than
public chains and so excited to see that
explored more especially with the plasma
cash architecture where users don't
actually have to know about the entire
information on our Jane the only thing
that I believe what makes me interested
in plasma as a technique is the fact
that you can settle many transactions
whatever they may be whatever
information it is without bloating the
chain so you know like the casual let's
say Bitcoin logic that you don't want to
put any data more than what's necessary
and I believe that's the general problem
good apps that smart contracts they
store too much whatever on chain so you
know let's put just 32 bytes per
whatever amount of time and it's better
and yeah payments well it's difficult to
get you every single said before I think
you should at two parts first as the Z
key based plasmas or other constructions
like the metallic propose with post and
also data on chain
okay the Z key based plasmus is a
plasmus whereas the state-transition is
governed by snark or Stark or maybe
other features you keep it Ziqi
construction in principle it is mainly
an ultimate goal you can make an invalid
state transition but you still have the
data availability an intermediate
solution was introduced by vitalik in a
recent post I think two weeks ago and
his research where it says well post
also data on chain and make it as a
public input to your snark and here good
well you blowed the transaction data you
pay an extra guest cast but still you
can aggregate a lot this is a great
approach and six the ultimate plasma
will still be somehow based on ZK piece
another part is people forget and we had
this discussion earlier before original
plasma paper had a part about a
MapReduce functionality there aware a
limited sets of computation which are
still viable this way for example what
you can do right now is you can offload
for example there's no qualification of
change for examples a recent game which
is governed by a state which the state
is governed by a snark in the principle
the only part you actually care as as
the state transition as well it and you
can applause a snark verification of
change to some operator which you can
easily monitor begets nor if you get
snarky vacations to milliseconds so is
the verification and it's stateless so
this approach may work but we should
maybe focus more on it after we solve
the payments and exit problem yeah just
to add to that I guess a lot of people
ask me what's the difference between
plasma and sidechains and that also
plays into the use cases so in general
the site owners if you have transactions
on a side chain you basically just need
to calculate the amount that you need to
bribe the validator so proof-of-work
operators with and you know how secure
your transaction is the main difference
I think the plasma is that on plasma you
don't do that calculation the answer is
you need to bribe the theorem proof of
work so we kind of extend the security
of the plasma of the main net onto the
plasma chain that is not done with the
side chains and I think that works
specifically for exchanges and all apps
and have high deposits so at the moment
we're in exchange
deposit size exceeds the stake size of
the validators it rationally makes sense
to steal and that is not true for plasma
chains so that's where these use cases
could live I'm super excited about
plasma because of the at least for now
the you know scalable payments and
exchange type stuff because we are close
and I think it's really important for
just crypto as a whole to like one
generate a lot more assets and to make
sure that those assets are very easy to
exchange and I think that that will like
facilitate the generation of value in
our kind of like weird economy and so
yeah I'm hopefully plasma can can play a
part in that story so I believe we
should take a more structured format
because we're just like talking about
the vision
let's set some like questions like
between us yeah I think it'd be good to
definitely get into that because we have
a limited time I think as long as
everyone like went through the
introductions and they wanted to make
okay for me like right now my principle
area is that you know beyond what
everyone said which I do agree with like
100 percent I think payments are
important and like definitely a lot of
advantages over you know at least the
federated sidechain models another major
thing that I think could be very helpful
for at least this ecosystem is that you
know you're seeing a lot of you know
aetherium me toos and a lot of people
that want a copy aetherium and what's
interesting is that is that aetherium
can end up being you know a central
point between a lot of different you
know block chains even even if you know
let's say you want to build a top
ecosystem inside ethereum I think you
know obviously this is that is much more
advantage advantageous because you do
have you know people that you know the
stock is there the community is there
the developers are there but even with
you know aetherium e2s they're probably
going to have to cross through aetherium
and
etherium can end up being like a central
trading point for that as well
all right I have a question so with
respect to Charlene it is considered a
layer 1 solution
like maybe mechanism because they actual
the whole connection between the beacon
chain and the short chain it is built in
the protocol and there are no gas costs
for doing that so I was I kind of play
around with the idea of like for Kingo
ethereum or parity and make it so that
there is a basically all plasma
operations free ok but in a way that
it's not possible in the same way that
how like the proof of stake as per
design would work and so would that make
plasma later on discuss doesn't make
sense well first of all we all the
possible implementers of different kind
of flavors of plasma in a menu of those
we have the bonds on exits first you
should define what is the plasma
operation which should be made free and
in principle what you're proposing more
like a polka dot if there are some
special smart contracts which are free I
think it's basic philosophy of the kiss
system I mean you can make the block
spam as an operator as a central party
what maybe you can make some other fancy
stuff which you name they make out right
now but let's start with without this
proposal at least yeah yeah it's kind of
like the whole like shelling Fanta type
thing where once you start making in
protocol changes or like layer 1
protocol changes where do you draw the
line I'd be really interested in seeing
more like discussion about essentially
coupling are like combining who trained
block submission between plasma chains
because that's a way to essentially
reduce the cost of running plasma chains
without making base layer protocol
changes so I think some of my concerns
about like enshrining anything plasma
related in layer one is that like that's
a new like liveness assumption to to
aterial validators or people who hold
value on the theorem like you have to
like the protocol says you have to log
in once every certain amount of time and
like that's not there's no trade-off
everyone wants to
like some people are even unhappy about
that like proof of steak that's a weak
subjectivity kind of yeah yeah I
definitely agree with Sean G right there
I think when it comes to changes on
layer one I mean this is a little bit
tangential but gets to the point as well
I think when it comes to layer one and
how it can help plasma I think you know
there's there's a dynamic where you know
we're dealing with different layers
there and communications between them is
pretty important so you know that may
require coordinating coordinating with
you know a lot of the core atheneum
research one topic that I do care about
and I actually don't know if it's on the
roadmap so maybe tell me if this is
there isn't Karl is some type of
calculation for basically the gas costs
per block and I think some type of
metric for that can be really helpful on
the plasma side because it makes the you
know more robust exiting games and
reliability on that can be pretty
helpful but is not necessary for plasma
but you know you may you may see these
dynamics where like you know whether it
be contracts really are two type things
you know can be helpful for layer one in
the opposite perspective yeah that's
actually a good point I mean the the
whole gas market is actually going to
get revamped with the the if they're
named 2.0 and you can kind of like read
about that in fatale --ax like he has a
paper out there and so yeah I think it
should be more viable it's definitely
more consistent right just push it to
stack like so yeah an opcode word like
pushes let's say not even like all the
blocks like not storing all the blocks
like gas costs but maybe like maybe the
previous ones with the current one why
not that's very reasonable
yeah what is the change basically you
push on to stack maybe a some cop code
where you push on to the stack the the
maybe you have some very assign a
variable basically some what the gas
costs on that block was Oh like to see
to to read what the guess oh yeah yeah
sorry for context in the audience right
now doing gas cost estimation in
contracts on recent blocks is
difficult um we have something like that
where we assume that if there is more
than one Operator they compete for the
next block just think along this way and
then you know when when the the header
is submitted we can just do message gas
and then we save that and take the
average over the last exploits
specifically an example where that
definitely is a good idea but for exits
this this this can be beneficial as well
because that way you can you can have
maybe relative bond sizes relative to
the cost of exiting when you when you
exit right you want to be able to pay
for whoever is going to challenge you
you want to be able to pay for the gas
cost and so doing that is a little bit
tricky and you probably have to
overestimate and it would be helpful to
have this kind of in protocol be nice
uncommon I have to make about that is
like the current gas the current gas
market is not designed to be like
resistant to manipulation if people are
relying on on if people are relying on
it for to have an accurate metric off
this is how much you you have to pay in
order to guarantee inclusion in the
block it's very hard to predict gas
prices in the future as one might
imagine because we don't necessarily
know like there was say we've thought a
lot about like let's make it so that you
can send a transaction that's guaranteed
to be included in a block in the future
but that gets so funky because then
you're like okay what are the actual gas
price like they're weird manipulations
that you can do if you thought gas token
was weird this just gets very confusing
so I was about to say that that in my
opinion I I'm considering implementing
basically gas token so the gas token
comes to action is it exploits a market
inefficiency where you can just buy gas
at the very low low price and you can
reuse it at some later point and so I
was thinking that maybe like you can
have like a minor inside the plasma
contract we just like it makes useless
operations during the night or wherever
like the gas price is low and so like if
currently if I buy gas at like two QA
like an estimate one block period like
15 seconds maybe it cost hundred
thousand
it sucks but if you bought at 0.1 UA
which is totally feasible like with this
inefficiency basically the cast cost is
totally manageable however you're
exploiting an inefficiency and the
moment that people other people also
start using it this inefficiency goes
away so it is not it is totally hack
that is temporarily that's only a
temporary solution and to be clear these
are all optimizations it's tough yeah
but still up to any optimization or just
anything which reduces the inefficiency
of any market and the three-room is
large so a huge market is still great
because we do the same is not the area's
and you need to do this it could be
helpful for many other smart contracts
is basically this dynamic regarding the
free market gap so actually there is the
market for gas for the bonds that you
put up also like when you're making a
exit so I'd like to initiate the
discussion the incentives of miners
front-running challenge transactions and
like how would you approach it my
current understanding is that you can do
it with a commitment but still that
commitment also leaks information there
is a current effort on somewhere
somewhere in sense that essentially you
you make a commitment that is more
stealthy yeah I would be interested if
you have an opinion on that specifically
the commitments for the question is how
to avoid the challenge from running
challenge front lining with regards to
exiting on the main chain or for always
the dimension okay I make an exit and
somebody must challenge me I put the 0.1
ether boom somebody goes to challenge me
they put up they go they make the
transaction the miners is it they make
the transaction before the Challenger
okay and it that means that they sweep
they get the bond right the miner get
this is an implicit like this is a fee
on top of this creates a secondary
market which it complicates how like the
miners can calculate their profits do
you do how like you're no longer based
on this like gas model and essentially
it's based like it
incentive to censor transactions so you
lose fees but I don't layer one but you
gain on fees that are on layer 2 how
would you model this approach because
basically what you mean I think correct
me if I'm wrong so I can describe it to
audience is this dynamic whereby a proof
of invalidity or some type of proof
basically doesn't have a signature
attached to it necessarily whereby the
solution about that I'm talking about
the simple fact that the minor can
simply or another user can monitor the
change similar to the math to the bank
or inefficiency if anybody else is
familiar with that that essentially you
front-run in transaction and if the
penalty no no no no no no it's oh I make
an exit on checking yeah okay I make I
put up a bond it is an invalid exit we
don't care about that we care about the
economics regarding the challenger's and
then the minor basically publishes the
exit no no the exit has happened it's
okay they okay and now somebody wants to
challenge the exit they challenge
they the challenge is a valid Channel
yeah okay but somebody else comes in for
trans challenge this means that if there
is a way for people to front on your
transactions yep you no longer are
guaranteed to profit from the
transaction is to stop challenging cast
it the person that's going to front run
most likely is the miner oh yeah point
being that front running it directly
impacts the security of the chain yeah
very likely does because people will
stop challenging if you get from drawn
by the miners and then the miners are in
the perfect position where they control
both in layer two
simply by playing this game where they
simply bullied people lot of challenging
yeah yeah that's definitely a risk with
a lot of these things there's multiple
there's multiple mitigations you can do
basically I don't like this but you know
a naive solution would be to you know do
some commit reveal whereby basically you
submit to a hash similar to a Fox coin
construction you know Joe Bono and 2014
Road you know Fox when you do something
like that where you commit to the hash
of whatever it is that you're going to
do namecoin does something similar the
there are significant issues with this
to be able in in terms of complexity
with a smart contract code I think some
type of model where you're splitting up
the penalty or maybe pre committing
where penalties go to is probably
shorter in terms of lines of code so for
example you can assign let's say 50% of
the penalty as part of this specific
output goes to these sets of people and
those are the sets of people responsible
for publishing but then you made you
just made the challenge mechanism not
trustless yeah yeah I'm just saying that
is a possibility if you already have
someone watching on your behalf I mean
okay but they're after let's watch
towers aren't real hardly
what do you it depends what you mean by
trustless watchtowers but basically yeah
I mean basically you would have to do
some type of commit reveal then as a
consequence and that does extend out the
challenge appeared it probably increases
the exit code by like you know the
Kelvin had and I had a point in a chant
about the submarine commitments Kelvin
can you explain it ensured I read the
documents and well more or less just get
and I have one question which will need
to be answered later sure so the problem
with just just standard commit reveal is
that usually well the fact that I'm
committing is leaking information about
the fact that I am going to make an
action I'm not telling you what the
action is you confront transit
commitment you can recommit right or if
you cannot be allowed to reconvene
that's I think the strongest attack is
is not too far under commitment it's to
notice that absolutely that's the point
right so that I if I'm a minor the
original problem is that if if I see a
challenge I can just execute the
challenge and boom I'll see that it's a
valid challenge so I'll front and run it
and I'll take the fee instead of the
person who actually did the work to spot
the error and and throw the challenge so
the the first solution that you could do
is make a commitment so somebody is is
asked to commit to making a challenge
before
actually revealing the challenged
information the problem with this is
that it leaks the information that
somebody is going to challenge later and
so what they do is it doesn't look that
somebody will turn it looks that
somebody made an action at least that
somebody somebody made an action and and
because somebody is forced to make an
action before challenging later right
we've we've asked people to commit then
reveal a minor can say ok I saw a
commitment so now I'm going to check it
and then I'm gonna front run and I'm
gonna I'm gonna get my commitment in
first and so the problem with this is
that it's the same exact same exact
issue the a minor they don't have to do
any work until somebody else does the
work then they can do it
they can spot the problem front run it
and take the fee and which kind of
destroys the whole thing so so generally
the idea of these submarine commitments
is that you make a commitment in a way
that you're not leaking the information
that you have made a commitment right so
you basically send a transaction to some
random address and then you later prove
that you made a transaction to that
random address and nobody can tell that
you made a commitment in advance and and
so the benefit of this is that you're
not leaking the information that you you
make you might be planning to act later
on and so you don't have this
front-running problem but it is
significantly more complex than then not
having this right I think from my
perspective is I think you know given
given your worst case searches I
actually don't think it's that bad you
know like if it ends up being the minor
just ends up collecting the fees that
amounts to being burning the coins right
from from an individual's perspective
and I think that's acceptable because
because there is no equilibrium in that
situation because you challenges will
stop even though there are invalid oh I
think there's sufficient incentive to do
challenges anyway yeah like I'm not I'm
not totally concerned with that yeah I
agree I mean the the cool thing about
like plasma cash and plasma from these
kinds of Merkle tree where you own a
particular subtree the cool thing is
that you have a very strong incentive
to challenge no matter what even if
you're not gonna even if you're gonna
not make any money from this like your
coins are at risk basically I think what
we're talking about is what what I think
the implication if we wanted to hone
down and on your concern George's is
that if you can get what you want in
terms of your goals um bond sizes to
decrease dramatically I think that's the
end result because I think effectively
if you're talking about your worst case
it's possible that the bond size we'll
get fairly large and maybe maybe you
know large enough that you have to be
fairly capitalized in order to do it and
definitely it's a it's a research
opportunity that I think will make a
pretty big difference in terms of the
end usability in terms of whether one
outsources once exits in terms of the in
sort of you know like trading the coins
trading the the actual value so I think
it is a really really important thing to
do but given the worst case I think you
know effectively the bond sizes if you
increase it enough then the probability
of you personally watching it should be
sufficient so then the problem reduces
to parameterizing probably and so I'm
curious from the how would you properly
parameterize both the bonds and the
duration of a dispute period that's a
really good question I thought and I
would be interested in a good like
market analysis of how that would be so
the other thing is the there was sort of
the scorched earth version of this which
was if you can prove that an invalid
exit went through you burn the entire
contract down and so it creates like a
massive negative incentive for you to
not challenge right and so we have this
problem in plasma maybe you wear this
wouldn't happen in plasma cash you don't
need this in plasma cash but impossible
VP of this problem where you know if I
make an invalid exit for five dollars or
whatever you know points zero whatever
eath then if it goes through the people
who take the loss or the people at the
end of the priority queue it's the
people it's it's not necessarily me
right so it could be you know it's just
some random person and so you that that
person would they're the only person
who's going to experience the negative
of impact of this and so we can make
other people experience the negative
impact of this if we basically say we
will burn down the entire contract throw
away all the money if you ever let this
happen which is like you know probably
not a great solution but I thought it
was fun and it's a good thing I think
it's great I think that there's like a
general rule here where when you're
designing these like economic crypto
anomic mechanisms you don't socialize
losses are generally scary because it's
this kind of common goods problem right
with this prisoner's dilemma we you know
it's not really gonna affect me I'm
gonna exit before them so why do I even
care about this five dollars it's going
to be stolen I can exist on a fractional
reserve as long as I get out first right
that's those kinds of weird incentives
where you you share the burden of you
know a you know challenging or whatever
it is pretty bad the better incentives
are when you are directly affected and
only you are directly affected and so
you have a the the person who is
supposed to act in response to this is
like very very clear and I think bond
sizing is is a really important topic
that I think even even us are not
necessarily experts in I think it's
something where you know it applies to a
lot of smart contracts in this space you
know state channels are another example
of this where you know bond sizing in
relation to gas fees are an important
topic and you know it affects a whole
host of contracts so if you're
interested and/or have an economics
background or interested in this topic
it's something which you know everybody
in the space would be very appreciative
if you know you're interested in doing
research in this yeah the Cohens the
question I had is there is still
indirect all leaking of information in a
submarine case because it's
unfortunately due to the technical
perspective how its implemented reduce a
transaction to some external smart
contract address of which you know
because you know some data which you
need to publish so it will be cheap this
address what the contract will be
recalculated its guessed as a problem if
your transaction to this contract is
somewhere some fancy amount a very small
for example it's leaking information if
it's an average it basically just well
Rick
if it's if it's more or less like an
ordering transaction especially in high
season three years from transaction
amount for example hi it most likely
means you need to have the higher amount
even starts a challenge and it's begins
like another probability challenger
should have at the worst case more
suddenly it would be just necessary to
just may be allowed to front run you and
and just indirect kind of indirect loss
and as a side comment I think you know
the the reason why you know we do need a
lot of people researching plasma and why
you know a lot of people are making
significant contributions is you need a
lot of ice on this for example one thing
like I just realized it's just now
sitting here is you know attack vector
because like when you're talking about
game theory you need you need a lot of
eyes on this to understand the game
theory an attack vector on the submarine
is construction that I was just thinking
of and correct me if I'm wrong this is
viable is you know I always if I'm an
attacker I'm always going to publish a
submarine proof yeah it would like you
steal the submarine proofs as you
attempt to steal the penalty by always
publishing a submarine proof
I don't reveal it but when someone else
reveals it I also reveal my submarine
proof the submarine proof has to commit
to the challenge of yeah yeah yeah so
I'm committing to my own my own my own
invalid exit I mean you start an
involute exit and yourself prevented
yeah so basically like I I must publish
an invalid exit I also publish a hash of
the proof of the dispute that's useful
because when someone else publishes a
penalty I can claim that I did it before
them the submarine proof it is it is
very well linked to you I think yeah so
so what I'm saying is that like anyone
in the audience can come up with
interesting constructions and disputes
on whatever mechanism that we're all
coming up with and it's something that's
very very important to do and I'm not
sure that this actually works but you
know is an example of you know something
which you know why why the community
when it comes to smart contract
development is
really really important to you know get
everyone involved and have a lot of ice
look at this oh yeah QA would be fun
Kunis our guys skill Beauty love hearing
with thousand TPS how will it affect
plasma negatively positively if layer
one scales will it make layer two
obsolete is the question so my
understanding is that anytime that you
gain committee placed data to the chain
you do it if you can do it that's like
pretty obvious so there is always the
need for layer two yeah I think that
they're going to be different properties
of the main chain and of plasma chains
plasma chains are just going to have
like you know maybe it's tons of
scalability and you know exchange kind
of built in and maybe fast finality or
something like this and something that I
was thinking about it's like okay does
does plasma work in a sharded context I
was like oh well there's actually a
really simple construction which allows
you to say okay I'm going to take one
plasma chain and I'm gonna hook it up to
ten shard chains and then all ten shard
chains will be able to deposit transit
assets into the single massive plasma
chain and so then everyone's able to do
kind of like native atomic swaps across
these different charts so like like how
does it work it's very simple it's very
simple I promise it's it sounds like
dream but I'm not sure how one contract
in each shard scene watches multiple
shots boom I'm blamed for this it sounds
I mean well first we need a 32-point oh
yeah you know right well the thing is
it's scary to research something and
then be like oh this new technology is
coming out does that just totally
obsolete all of what I'm doing Jeff I'm
so curious
it doesn't matter so much about access
to plasma from chars because for at
least four fungible token flows because
you can just instant swap in channels
between a channel literally anywhere in
the ecosystem and a channel and plasma
anyways so the only thing you need the
connection between plasma and the main
chain for in terms of fungible tokens is
managing net capital flows in arbitrage
we should happen like just every once in
a while it doesn't even matter like
people people don't even care yes and a
couple of something similar was that you
can hook the plasma more to more than
they're just issuing flavor and well
with some problems which arise because
you can commit different blocks
different headers and everything that
should be in time and available but this
is quite similar so we can try this
first and then we'll see how it goes
maybe some fancy market between the
chains we'll see maybe between this eggs
dye chain with this Authority but stable
coin inside of it's what you see inside
the plasma
let's make as a fan CDs I was under the
assumption that they each dye chain is a
trusted environment but to also extend
your point from a different facet you
know state channels are also relevant in
relation to plasma and will continue to
be if you want things like instant
finality and can be it probably likely
be the you know front-end interface at
least for most people so I also have a
completely unrelated question which is
why are you guys spending time and on
this piracy accumulator stuff when you
should just verify your state
transitions I totally agree with you
there is conflicting with curls there's
different perspectives on this so maybe
we can I'm not aware that I'm being
contentious like very finest verifying
state transitions has like like you
might get a low marginal cost eventually
but usually you always pay the base cost
but with something like last Mike hash
you can get down to like 1s torpor like
like 20,000 guests per
per transaction without without any like
kind of batching thing one advantage
that you can't get with the problem with
this DK based constructions they should
encounter for more than just cast of
postings of snark but well state
transition or something like this any
other construction it also boys out if
you want like one proverb which should
make your blocks you should have the
mechanism in the case you don't publish
the call data to the contract you
publish the block separately you should
have the mechanism to solve date
availability if you have competing
operators your cost increases because to
calculate this knife is not easy it's
not cheap and now you have to multiply
by the number of competing operators who
should get well for those it should be
reasonable to get the profits from it so
basically transaction cost increases
this is also an area of research I'll
sent as a researcher which didn't talk
today we had a some discussion
accreditor it's how you can make the
stateless block validation which was the
recent paper published I think a thank
you for charges for link as a research
ed works yeah you can make a block
validator completely status you can
write it on mobile devices you can have
like almost absolute liveness hundred
minutes of thousands of users no not the
balanced one for now we take some other
vector commits and we can discuss later
was there not usable right now so there
are various areas of research this
stateless validation is great just
because we want live news we want
someone watching at least someone's the
same way as for assuming to poundtown
you want someone to run this fancy
hardware with vdf you want someone to
monitor the plasma just someone and then
it will work otherwise well we need to
work in user experience validation and
everything so yeah more people can
change the research is better as well in
research may be difficult implementation
is still great because you need to test
so many things how is it work how it
makes the user experience so just please
join Evan if you don't want to research
you won't just write a code yeah I think
we you know we are always you know the
space always needs better systems
engineers and more systems engineers I
think
yeah in addition to your question I
think you know having having a baseline
using minimal fancy cryptography is good
and then having fancy cryptography used
to makes everything better easier faster
I think it's a good rule of thumb in the
space and you know that that makes them
very strong measurable improvement
maybe a personal story so I got into
this plasma research as well and I was
kind of like going strong on aetherium
style contracts and I thought there's
nothing wrong with them and then Kelvin
wrote a bunch of interesting blog
articles talking about how actually a
ledger
you know attracts assets it doesn't
necessarily contracts should maybe not
be first-class citizens on on assets on
Ledger's and the whole plasma research
has kind of led me to kind of rethink
the architecture of a theorem and kind
of find that there could be a way more
efficient set up where in Bitcoin you
kind of have fat blocks but a thin stage
any theorem you have thin blocks of fat
state but we could go with thin blocks
and thin state I think it was low then I
was still it says the trader was Kelvin
was talking about until it's formalized
well light client and light blocks like
ideal scenario but still most like is
there a trade offs maybe there is
nothing like a external computation
powers it should be made to make some
blocks and one fun a theorem 2.0 note is
that the first focus in the main focus
is providing a massive stream of
available ordered data that you can rely
on and Trust right this is in fact the
most primitive in my opinion because it
is literally just information that we
have consensus on and information can be
interpreted in whatever way you want so
if you want a different kind of
aetherium you know EVM or if you want to
you know put Bitcoin or Z cash directly
on aetherium and use that kind of data
stream that's super cool and in fact it
needs to happen please do and we're
gonna see all of these alternative
execution engine constructions probably
pop up very soon but we're like getting
a theorem down to its essence which is
very exciting so you're basically saying
when the bay
becomes cheap enough we can use plasma
to absorb other chains no you can just
make fancy constructions with plasma VM
yeah something like this Justin needs a
data stream and publish everything on
the chain no data availability problem
whatsoever actually actually I like I'm
really excited about the data
availability thing but like from a text
on in front of you like like they've
been called data layer to execution
engines before and it's basically like a
mechanism which relies on are at the
root chain for for for data availability
yeah so like we could call it plasma
everyone but like it's it is it is used
to do I think keep a distinction between
things like plasma cache which which
don't rely which don't rely on that and
and things which do yeah yeah roll up
would be an example of something that
relies on the theorem for data
availability all right so I want to
start an argument
Thanks so my question is you mentioned a
little bit earlier about the original
plasma paper and how you use the
MapReduce mechanism and how that doesn't
necessarily fit into most use case I'm
kind of curious like what kind of use
case will fit into it's still like
necessary like for example we deal with
time series data would that you know
it's that kind of that a use case in a
secondary question the original paper
has like multiple layers and is that
layering just for the mass exit
mechanism is that is that layering even
necessary anymore so basically right now
we're not even at that stage the
presumption is I think what we're
realizing is the scalability benefits
that you can get simply by having one
plasma chain is probably going to be
sufficient for the overwhelming use
cases the the notion of nesting gives
you the benefit of you know scalability
within the context of you know perhaps
you know you don't want a district
engineering-wise it's a lot easier to
have computation that can fit on one
server right that's that's simply like
if you ask any distributed systems
engineer like once
you have you know some state across
multiple servers the engineering
challenge just blows up and that's fine
to do if you have no other choice and
it's sort of a model of how you can do
that for a lot of state across different
you know uh that that goes beyond that
right now the problem sets that we're
dealing with probably can be done on one
you know high powered server or a set of
five powered servers or so specifically
once a high power servers and you can
eventually go into a set of high power
servers by making nested commitments
we're not writing another code for that
right now simply because or doing any
designs for that right now simply
because it's not we're not even seeing a
need for that necessarily the the
context for the MapReduce construction
within within that need is within that
within that within that process is that
essentially there's a problem in
relation to a lot of you TXO like
instructions whereby you txl like
instructions don't do global state that
well it's sort of like in terms of data
structures if you can only do linked
lists and you can't do maps or a race
right like it's sort of like well what
can you really do with this right when
you're dealing with global State
essentially you need to have some type
of you know global agreement or
consensus so it's a statement that you
basically have the plasma chain be
processing global consensus and that's
basically what what we're doing right
now yeah
regarding the mapreduces i well maybe I
shouldn't mention this construction how
we can offload the snarky execution of
chain but in principle as Kelvin
mentions there should be either clear
ownership of state which you can exit in
in most of our cases for now the state
is a value if you don't if you state is
something abstract which you can live
with having exiting like the previous
state at some point and just saying well
this is a previous one which is the last
well it and I can just afloat all the
computation I'm fine with exiting like
the previous like the last valid state
on chain and doing something with it in
a worst-case scenario then you can put
the computation inside so you can make
it like offloading computation of change
the same ways as everyone want to do
with the snarks verify it on chain with
starts verify it and chain you can do
something similar
it's the idea is not huge and you can
just try to make it but very limited set
of key
patience which you can use and it's like
maybe games can be done this way well
games can be done or sorry at least
sorry cool all right five second
argument plasma naming scheme is bad and
you should feel bad so so my you know we
had this kind of meme naming scheme
right where we went off Bitcoin Forks so
we had plasma cash plasma XT what else
did we have plasma gold plasma and G
whatever right so and it's totally
involved into this problem where in
order to be I mean the idea is like
capture this design that you've created
with one name and refer to the design
with that name and so now it's been this
thing where like incremental benefits
like tiny little improvements are
allocated their own entire name which
makes you know kind of no sense and and
and then also like people have been
taking this as I in order for my design
to be taken seriously I need to assign
it a name and so you have this massive
bloat of the plasma and name space and
it's super confusing I think it's just I
get it makes it really hard for me to
refer to what I'm actually talking about
when there's like 18 different names so
I think it's considered harmful I mean I
I like the idea of naming things I think
we should just be careful about you know
unless it's something totally novel like
I like plasma prime being named its own
thing is it's just it's a ton of work
that's been done over the last few
months put into its thing and it really
refers to a large improvement over
plasma cash but like micro improvements
right it just designs that aren't well
fleshed out I feel like we should
present the ideas and then it's only
when it's really solidified into a
package should it be assigned a name and
I would my vote here is that we take
that naming scheme apart but I am open
arguments against this
I think we're short on time let me bring
the mic to this guy and while I bring
the mic oh he got I just want to ask in
your opinion first
what was the best challenge time for the
for the challenge period well that's the
question is we actually don't know and
that's why you know you know like I
think we can take a lot of the work used
for state channels as of late but that
is something which is ultimately up to
you know the user the plasma chain and
you know what type of risk models if I
may very quick you already said that the
in European but the best solution is to
put this plasma cash on one server and
separate having like one super server so
you have like one Operator right and in
that point what's not necessarily the
case it could be a set of validators you
know like for example the most naive
construction would be around robbing a
validators for example so most likely
peer-to-peer network yeah yeah will be
done across you know some propagated
peer-to-peer network you just want the
entire state to be able to rep you
represented on a single machine
listen commotion the idea is sort of
like on ethereum you know you know you
don't you don't have one single server
running aetherium everyone replicates it
but it can be run on a single machine
currently with sharding of course you
know you have a more distributed model I
like to just answer his question and uh
like I it's like a slightly more
technical thing but I I think the the
biggest challenge like we haven't quite
figure it out is like some people in
disagree with me is like proof
compression for plasma cash so like I
think that who best candidates are like
on the one hand using RSA accumulators
and on the other hand like proof
compression using using using stocks and
like I think both have both after
downsides like like RSA commuters are
not quantum secure they're not they have
like the engineering it is I think
pretty complicated and whereas for for
it as stock compression like Shari
doesn't compress doesn't run very well
in in a stark and like the stock
friendly hash functions are a very
expensive one watching that's mine it's
my personal view but like I think if
that is I think if that is solved like
we get like the list of features is is
pretty nice just a little bit emphasize
what Joseph said I you can
have any set of validators for a new
plasma block but ideally two just to
plainly reduce the cost you want your
data to produce a block and the place
where you take all the transactions from
users you wanted as central as possible
just to reduce the costs if you have
competing producers just multiply by the
number of producers the amount of fees
you would want to expect from the block
otherwise it's not profitable for them
to run the hardware so it's again a
trade-off but there are there are ways
to well not ways to solve it you
understand every strategy and most like
we just need to stay to set of elevators
and build a signature I think what about
censorship resistance like if you have
one Operator then it's not a feature
okay is that and it also relates with
fees in plasma I believe that you should
consider that your transaction is by
default censored and you should feel
nice when it gets included and this is
this is what allows you to like any kind
of transaction fees they don't have to
be in the protocol because I can
literally go to Jonesy I can tell him
you're my operator by default he's
censoring me that is the default and
like if if he takes have I because he
paid me my five PayPal dollars this one
yes I let the transaction go through
yeah and it's totally like good for like
the fig model because it's totally
independent it's like you have a
whatever service that you're providing
because you're the operator you must be
operating something you have some for
profit and yeah I believe that the value
that's the proper way to think if you
want stronger guarantees change your
route chain smart contract to be able to
process it on the route chain as well
tit would be reflected in the clasp yeah
I think we're running a long time just
this is just purely for redundancy
purposes too I think like you all made a
lot of good points and like all of us
would love to go do more research on
some of the points that you made but we
never got through introductions so we
only got half of your names to do for
the research so can we just go back and
get everybody's names so that we can go
research some of the points that you all
made on our own did some of you not
on the walking up to the introduction
we'll just we'll just do it really quick
hi Calvin fish Sir Joseph own shrine see
David not George's constant Ovilus it's
longer
riverkeeper Alex philosophy Alexander
for a full name johann Barbie Karl
flourish and and I think there's a bunch
of you know I don't I don't want to
discount all the all the other people
working on plasma I think you know you
know people like dan dan Robinson
couldn't make it there's a lot of people
writing excellent implementation a lot
of people you know like people like you
know or state walk they're not they're
not represented up here but definitely
have been doing a lot of excellent work
a lot of other other other people
projects and I think you know a lot of
people making comments on III search and
you know this is a very you know the the
communities designed to be very
inclusive I think you know it's called
the plasma you know implementers group
but it seems to be plasma smacking them
some designers group and there's a lot
of implementations as well and they
definitely you know if you do want to
contribute you know I think there's an
opportunity to be making measurable
differences and positive differences III
search and learn plasma org but if I may
say one thing like lately I noticed that
in III search some posts like you open a
new thread just ask a question then do
that just post a reply on the existing
threads because it's impossible to
follow they there's that and secondly I
believe that the actual contributions to
this like not to sound hostile or
anything
it must be technical like try to search
what has been answered already because
like there are a few good resources and
if they are not like we're compiling
some which are pretty like all in one
but generally like in the classic forum
mentality like don't ask the same things
maybe add issues to but like it is and I
say I think you know the the the this is
an open community as well but definitely
keep it as technical as possible I would
agree with that and but you know this is
a you know inclusive community
definitely you know look at e3 search
going through the scientific process of
learning how to you know do all this
stuff thank you thank you
you