foreign
[Music]
this before we introduce ourselves with
a quote from one of my favorite essays
of all time
um
the optimal user is someone who does not
want the burden of choice or feels they
do not have the time to make their own
decisions it is for this person that the
modern web is designed and it is this
type of person the modern web encourages
all of us to be so this is from Zach
mandeville's essay the future will be
technical it's at cool guy.website it's
a really excellent piece of writing
about sort of our relationship to modern
technology and
um The Way We Exist online and the ways
that it damages us
so
starting from
there sorry I'm gonna pull up my notes
again
I'm going to have our panelists
introduce themselves in a second but
um
just to kind of set the stage for our
topic here
um
in the modern web and what we think of
as web 2 everything has kind of these
guardrails on it right everything is
simplified our paths are clear
you have only so many options and this
makes things easier but it's also really
disempowering
um
so I think that we all in this room
probably agree that things like can and
should be different
um but
what that means is still a little bit
fuzzy right like it's still left to be
defined and there's even an argument to
be made I think that it shouldn't be
defined some which is discovered like in
cooperation with the people that we're
designing for so
with that I'm going to invite the
panelists to introduce themselves
um
let us know less interested in
affiliation and More in sort of what you
do what your background is
um and the kinds of people that you
design for who you think of as your
users
awesome hello
I am Scott I co-founded gitcoin back in
2017 I think I'm trying to remember it
seems like a while ago now
um
I think for me you know I actually don't
uh come from which is I'm on the outlier
on this panel like a design background
but I do a lot of community design and
think about the role of the community in
participatory decision making both in
the context of the data we run but also
in the process of
um you know things like quadratic
funding which are more about local first
sort of community-led decisions for
funding and I think
um you know that the quote that you
mentioned is actually like very resonant
to me because the experience of telling
I had growing up in the web I think
reflects that
um and certainly
was
I think like a you know I was at this
era I grew up in this era where I think
it was just on the precipice of things
like Facebook and all these big
platforms which I think I don't need to
dive into the details on like that we
all know kind of have created this
attention
um and I sort of saw that magic of the
internet uh disappear a little bit and
so I'm very hopeful that with the tools
we're building here we think about
bringing that magic back and like kind
of think about you know the weirdness of
the internet as it used to be as
something that we can actually like use
in an empowering way within our own
communities
um so that's just what came to mind but
I'll leave it there that's perfect
take over
um so guys I'm Hester
I work as an independent ux researcher I
have a background in Psychology and
interaction design
and yeah kind of do what is necessary at
any given time so I I yeah I don't I
particular function or role too much my
kind of views I think have been mostly
influenced by my last five years or so
at status for those of you who are not
familiar it's one of the I'd say one of
the the older older projects in this
space but also an incredibly principle
one on bringing privacy and security
and participation to everyone by putting
access to ethereum onto a mobile phone
among other things so that's kind of
like what has in a way re-educated me
um were educated me in the first place
about uh uh kind of the ignorance I had
around like privacy and data I'd be
giving up and
um kind of the
trade-off that I was making for
convenience
um for context I also spent a very short
stint at um the ads Department of what
is now meta
um and so I I have a bit of a nuanced
view on kind of the big bad wolf of
um social media companies uh as well uh
seeing problems as very systematic so
that's that's another lens I try to look
at things from so
um I guess that's me Rachel
thank you
um yeah my name is Rachel I'm on uh I
work at the ethereum foundation on the
privacy and scaling Explorations team
with Althea
um my background is in Fine Arts I went
to school for sculpture and I was doing
a lot of work related to
um you know how do people interact with
um
objects and spaces and how can
those interactions create conversation
and communication and
um
it was also
I think a time where I was exploring a
lot of like how can you
um find metaphor to explain things in
new ways and that's what I relate to the
work I do on the PSE team we're working
with
um developers who are creating zero
knowledge protocols and apps the content
is really abstract and complex so
um a lot of my role is like spending
time with developers or in conversations
with Althea and other designers other
communicators and saying like how can we
um
find ways to make this understandable or
familiar so that more people can be
involved in conversations around
designing for ZK
um
and the users that were focused on right
now are a lot of other app developers
and
designers who want to be making their
own products with the zero knowledge
protocols that our team is creating
thank you and I will also introduce
myself but I wanted to lead with you
guys
um so my name is Althea as Rachel said I
also work on the privacy and scaling
Explorations team at the EF but I lead
Communications there
um I actually also have a fine arts
background but as a fine arts major I
really gravitated toward what most
people would call crafts so I was a
ceramicist I was really a Potter because
I I just could never really enjoy or get
my head around the idea of creating
things for people to just consume I
wanted to create things that people
would like use and have as a part of
their lives and eventually destroy
probably or give away or whatever that
things that are not sort of there for
money or to like you know accumulate
value or to just be pretty to look at
but things that really are part of your
life that you can build experiences
around
um so Rachel's kind of explained what
pse's like user base is but
um in terms of communicating with that
user base I have a similar kind of
approach of wanting to put out things
that people
um we don't just want to Market
ourselves right we've like that's not
even a little bit what we do but we want
to educate people and like invite people
to be a part of this to create stuff
with us to give us feedback to help us
iterate
um and to like just themselves become
Builders of the worlds that they want to
live in
um
so
this panel is ostensibly about user
experience but
I think it has to start with kind of
redefining what a user even is and maybe
just throwing out the word user entirely
because it kind of sucks for the way
that we want to think about the people
that are interacting with the things
that we create right like user
implies this very passive thing
um
we make
you use it's the sort of client server
model of like human interaction and we
expect as users to have our platform
sort of
consume and parse and spit back out
little package things that we can like
then process and this very simple and
very sort of deadening way a little bit
biased on all this obviously
but to think about users in a different
way as being sort of more human having
like uh you know entire lives Minds
responsibilities
um like capabilities
um
really requires a huge mental shift
it it means thinking in a very different
way about sort of who's on the other end
of whatever it is that you're working on
um so
I wanted to ask you guys like you've all
come from more kind of traditional
backgrounds right you didn't all start
in web three
um which is a term I hope to never use
again in this conversation and I'm sorry
I hate it
um because it defines itself against the
thing that it's trying not to be right
and we want web3 to be something
a lot better than like web 2 with a
blockchain on it like those foundations
are just broken we don't want to build
on them we want to rebuild them so
um coming from the backgrounds that you
did
what have been some of the challenges or
like the things that you've had to
really unlearn or rethink or reimagine
as you've been coming into this new
space and like coming with this new
approach
I think for me the biggest learning has
probably been that so I before I even
did anything and and I'll say crypto I
love three like the
um my work was actually in more machine
learning which is very like much removed
from a person because I mean you have
sort of this notion in machine learning
of like working with people but only in
the sense that like people at some point
made like training data that you're then
kind of applying like at a much later
point so like people in the past like
often like the far past did something
now you're kind of drawing on that I
think with something like quadratic
funding and what we're doing with Git
coin it's much more about like kind of
even the word the word agent isn't great
but like I'll use agent as compared to
like algorithm and I think
um you know what we're trying to do is
like have people form kind of collective
intelligence like you know at a given
point in time where they're actually
present and they're actually
participating and they're actually
making a decision you know for now for
the future
um versus kind of using this previous
past like training data
and I think
that's you know one shift that's been
really interesting for me to explore and
I think it's being kind of exciting to
see that like web you know crypto uh
tends to be a lot more about like the
idea of people being participants in a
system even when
um you know they're just kind of
providing signal or providing some kind
of like aggregate information but I
think there's something deeper to that
which is just like
um Simona pop talks about this a lot too
also in the Bitcoin Community uh the
idea of like kind of human thriving or
like bringing your like whole self to
something that you're doing I think
there's definitely even Beyond just like
I think the user experience kind of
concept is a symptom of a broader way of
framing like the interaction we have
with institutions organizations in which
we sort of talk about like oh like I
guess we're sort of like a customer
where like
um you know one we have one facet of
ourselves in the in the conversation
but I think it's actually much more
important for us to think about like how
do we start to bring more of ourselves
to the institutions that we're building
and then how the institutions change as
a result of that so
I I'm kind of partly thinking of this in
the context of like this shift from
algorithm to to agent which isn't
entirely correct but is is one thing I'm
interested in and then I'm also thinking
of it in terms of like kind of bringing
like one part of the elephant and that
sort of like blind man and the element
analogy uh to like actually trying to
look at the whole elephant and look at
the whole picture of each person that's
in the community to better kind of serve
them in in the institution
thanks for mentioning the word future
because that was my cue to my notes it
was like oh yes future that's what I
wanted to say
um no I always have this um because we
were talking about like users what
defines users and in in
um ux and design like this is like
always Eternal ongoing debate right
users versus human centered versus
um like the creators there's a lot of
different labels that you can give and
I'll have different views on it um
yeah I I have my own but um I think my
most uh critical Insight relates more to
how we Define ux which like
traditionally coming from a psychology
cognitive psychology background was
always focused on the usability side
like how efficient can we get people
through flows are we providing the right
information but it was never focused
around the future context and to me
that's that's been pretty eye-opening
um to the extent that I actually looked
looked up the official kind of ISO
definition of ux which actually does
include like context and long-term
impacts of what your experience is when
you're using something and yeah to me
it's been most most interesting to see
how the systems that we're building
require us to think Beyond these basic
flows to talk in design language to what
is is going to be going to do for people
in the future be it the like the initial
users or indirectly their their contacts
their environment
um yeah I'll leave it at that but great
deal oh right no there was one thing I
wanted to say I just it occurred to me
just now how interesting it is that we
are sitting here talking about
participation design and like reminder
open tier
probably just wanted the water didn't
you
we have to share a mic if somebody comes
up that's okay so
uh hey guys what and actually uh one of
the
I've been with my team we have some
people here we've been laboring uh
Building Products since uh 2013 and we
got into web 3 in 2017 probably and one
of the huge issues that we always had
with products it's a user experience
rate
and the thing that we have with right
now is that it's very hard to get those
webto people into web trips so what do
you use you use the the tools that we
have already like email and password
right and we're trying to like to make
it really really secure to get those
people in a secure in a secure and known
for them uh manner to get into our
products so I'm a little bit nervous I'm
sorry so uh
we have we have created the model where
you can create an account with username
and password and we are smart wallets
which means we are built on top of smart
smart contracts and we're able to to get
the private keys and put it on the
browser and put it on the back end so we
have like two different private keys and
this way we're able to uh to get
something they already know and to put
it in our product we don't want to
change like we're not able to come with
something like very different it doesn't
make any sense to come with something
very different in the educate people how
to use it we're using things that they
already know and the other point is that
uh basically uh with three and
blockchain is not uh it's complex and
one of the things that we've been
working on is explaining transactions in
a human friendly way so you're signing
something and we're explaining you
exactly what you're assigning so there
is no bothering right and basically this
is the two keys of our product of course
we have very smart people and they've
been working on their interesting things
and the wallet itself works with
abstractions when we're taking advantage
of all those beautiful things that we
have from the smart contracts in general
but this is why I actually attended this
talk because that's that's the most
important part like to get the web
through web through users and bring it
on web3 that's that's the whole thing in
here so we will have created a product
that my mom can use easily so she has an
email right and our our in here is to to
create it securely like to create an
account securely into a web tree so yeah
awesome go ahead well do you see like so
like I mean you're talking about like
kind of privacy security like and I
think that like ties in to actually your
work like Rachel like pretty deeply like
how do you think about like explaining
that stuff to users like that just seems
very difficult especially with ZK
especially it's like even on its own
complicated but if you want to respond
to that first
um so when I joined the team that's
where my head was like wow this stuff is
so weird how do I explain it to my
parents
um How can I
how can we make these apps that
um my friends and family can use and I
was very stuck in that like headspace
and it took me like a little while
before I realized that that was like a
misdirection for us and our team
specifically because we're making public
goods
what we want to do is we want to make
protocols that other people can build
with we want to create proof of concept
applications that people can use that
Inspire them to build and to make
so I really liked also and thank you for
being the first to join us by the way
you're very brave I'm not kicking you
out but if anybody else does want to
come up
you know that wasn't so bad right
um yeah come on
um but I wanted to just like come back
to a point that you made about using
kind of
well now we've got another volunteer
um the more the better right but about
using kind of
human readable language to describe
these kind of complex processes is that
this is something that Rachel talked
about in her presentation yesterday also
um that yes the stuff that's going on is
complicated but a lot of the times where
you lose people is actually just in
literally the language that you use to
describe it that people are not stupid
and they're not like incapable but they
don't know what a zero knowledge proof
is they don't know what a polynomial is
whatever it is that like putting that
stuff into just more common language can
go a long way and it's something that I
think we kind of forget that people do
like to understand things people like to
explore people are curious
um
so like to kind of Empower people by
helping them to understand what's going
on and helping them to see the tools
that are actually in front of them
um so I think that that was a really
like a powerful point so thanks for that
and do you want to
go around that or sorry Scott did you
have something okay yeah so just to
build on what you were saying about
complexity so well hi I'm Nelly a head
of adoption at ixsec one of the OG's
projects in in France and well I wanted
to share my experience
um because I'm I love Mass adoption and
inclusion and diversity in the space and
when I joined this project this project
was launched by researchers we're doing
blockchain confidential Computing and
one of our first audiences was people
looking for computing Powers data sets
applications and it's a very technical
um
the nickel audience and then my job is
going to bring like our technology to
masses but when you're doing with
oracles confidential Computing you know
it's not a cc so we came up with this
thing uh it's a new product and uh it's
about using confidential Computing to
protect our uh personal data so the idea
behind this is like hey our protocol is
complex and how can we make people
identify with our product with our
features so trying to sell oracles and
you know uh trusted security execution
environments is hard but we realize that
the thing that was linking us to uh the
audience is like nobody identifies with
computing power to articles it's really
hard but we all have an identity we all
have personal data and what we're trying
to do is like create you create an
avatar and then you put all your
um personal data email address age uh
everything you transform it using
confidential Computing using
confidential nfts and this is this the
way that now you're going to connect and
access products and services in Wave 3
and then everybody can uh can identify
it with hologram all the gram is me it's
my personal data I transform it and then
I connect so one of uh things I learned
like try to find that feature that
narrative that really connects you uh
with your audience even if your project
or your protocol is complex yeah I think
that's really important like finding
something that people can connect to or
like see themselves in or that like
Rachel said again in your presentation
was just really good I'm gonna like
reference it probably a few times
um but something that feels familiar
like you know something that
um
is like something that you know
um did you have something you wanted to
add there's well just that one common
theme I think and it probably will come
up like as other people come up as well
which I'll like say anyone else wants to
come up should
um I think it's really actually
interesting to think about like
education because we don't really like
we don't actually educate users in a lot
of we kind of do it implicitly in
existing design paradigms where we're
just kind of like here's the flow and
like then you walk through and by
definition you've now understood what
you're supposed to do there's a lot of
like pre-work that's I think required
with like a lot of these products that
like we're sort of touching on and like
I think there's the option of trying to
reduce that there's the option of trying
to like have people better identify with
that and so like just going back to like
your your like sort of first question
like how are we redefining what a user
is like
that part of participation is like being
involved in kind of learning and growing
and like educating
and that's actually something that
people I think are like often uh in the
context of like using a product or being
part of a community like sometimes I'm
comfortable with
um but it's really important to be able
to do that so yeah definitely so and
that kind of leads me to and I hope that
this one will also be
um
like another thing that I wanted to
bring up um and I think education is
like a big piece of this but it's also
much deeper
um how you inspire people to like to
take responsibility for the the actions
that they take
um responsibility for
um you know giving the feedback that
helps to shape a platform just
responsibility for kind of curating the
spaces that we create together
um what are some of the other things
that we think about when we're trying to
like give that power to people and like
Inspire and expect them
to make that contribution back
I can give you a quick
answer that no I was thinking along the
lines of the the first two people that
joined us up here
um that we were talking about language
right and how do you
um use language to help people
understand what's going on and if we
want to talk about participation design
that's that to me is where the pivot is
what between users and participants you
need to know like what's going on you
need transparency on the system in order
to participate
um so yeah just like my line of thinking
of the distinction between designing for
users designing for participants we need
a lot more system transparency which
also means we need to understand how
these things work and especially
designers need to understand how to
bring it then to the surface and
communicate it but I'm very curious how
to or you're going to bring up so hi my
name is Germany like the country
um
so I'm co-founder of a hyper local Dow
in Tampa Florida called Tampa Bay Down
TBD for short because we're always
figuring out but yeah so one thing
we really like to do is like how about
the local community and like kind of
comes back down to education and
onboarding because in Temple we have a
diverse group of people old young and
one thing that kept coming up for us was
before we started getting to like ZK
Roll-Ups or different like networks in
the uh crypto ecosystem in web3
I realize as we're like doing these like
really like um educational like classes
is we kept missing the initial
principles in which that governs crypto
and so what I did was I created this um
Visual Web and it has starting in the
middle which is the part that people
forget is self-sovereign to me so people
ask me well why are you here and I'm
like well if you read the Bible what
does it really mean so that's in the
middle and then it kind of breaks out
into the trifecta and it goes into like
trustlessness consensus proof of work
perfect steak ethereum it's then people
start to understand like a ravel of oh
now I understand the grade to hold now I
see why we need DK roll ups to get for
that and I think that really helps in
terms of what you were saying as well
which is like education is key but
education forms of like the principles
versus really getting into like the
buyer code of like well here's how we
got to do this you got to start it like
no we don't and so yeah that's all I
just like wanted to say with that I
thought was interesting because
education really is important for that I
really want to see that
um visual okay so I actually think
supposed to just like open source you
know it can just download and use it for
to teach people in your local
neighborhoods or communities so yeah
awesome and sorry what was it called
it's like on like Kumo uh oh like share
whoever wants to connect after this and
give you the link so yeah yeah thank you
so much for that
um
Rachel did you have anything you wanted
to add there
well
um
yeah I guess it's just so interesting to
think about like we all everyone who's
talking right now is designing for
different audience members
um but we're all thinking about
education on different levels so
um I just I get stuck on this idea that
I hear people you know say like well
this has to be usable like this stuff is
not approachable yet
and
for me it's like that's okay that's
where we are right now but like if we
don't spend time like really educating
ourselves like the people who are making
it and documenting our process and
documenting our learnings
then like we're not going to get to that
like end point that everyone's
visualizing where like everything is
really easy for anyone to use
um so uh like Germany was saying about
like creating these visual Maps
um creating these resources for people
from different learning levels to
onboard into the space I think that's
just really important
I really like that and I think this is
something that we forget a lot that like
we are also users and participants in
this like all of these things were sort
of the first participants we are
hopefully building in the way that we
hope other people will continue to build
um and so to kind of build for ourselves
I think is not selfish it's practice
it's like that's the first iteration and
we learn what that learning process is
like by having to muddle through it as
we go
um so yeah I think to sort of just
um
as Rachel was saying like
document those processes and really pay
attention to what it's like for us to
learn and for us to find that
inspiration is really
important and and like really valuable
and we have a new friend yeah um super
grateful to be here in the presence of
everyone my name's Sean I'm working on a
community-owned and operated proactive
Healthcare System
um so it's a Dao and this seemed super
aligned because
um in healthcare we think a lot about
how we can co-create Health experiences
for people especially people combating
stuff like chronic diseases have to have
some sort of lifestyle change and it's
quite interesting the parallels between
web 3 web we have to basically design
for a participatory experience because
if the people involved in the experience
are not playing an active part in
designing what they want to do in a
sense autonomy in healthcare that helps
people stick to whatever they're
committing to do
um and in web 3 I think what we want to
design and what we want is to let people
come into our product or a community and
then figure out how they intentionally
with their own values missions fit in
the community community and we spend a
lot of time like figuring out how that
looks like for a healthcare doll and I'm
curious to hear what your guys thoughts
are on that kind of
intentionality in community onboarding
um
I'll I'll just quickly say I think
there's definitely thank you yeah
there's there's a huge challenge with
anything to do with Community which is
you know what what is the what is the
boundary of of community like what is
the community what is the goal of the
community what's the purpose why are
people there you know what what is their
like kind of
um how to start what were the principles
behind that I think
um one of the challenges is always I
think actually it's easier in some ways
with a defined Mission like you're
talking about to Rally people around
something that in this case if if it's a
you know group of people that all have
sort of like some amount of like chronic
illness like I think there's a shared
sort of Kernel of of
um similarity and like a feeling of kind
of congeniality between people by
definition
um whereas you know with something like
crypto I think
like maybe just not to go too off track
we mean many different things by it like
lots of people in this room probably
mean different things by it and so
figuring out like what those uh like
kernels are with those like core uh like
principles are like like Germany said I
think is like really important
um as we think about like you know not
necessarily even like I think boundaries
make the wrong word but like what is the
sort of like
um inclusion criteria in the community
and and that's important because you
need to make sure that
um you know if someone is participating
that they're doing to you to your point
like they're taking the responsibility
doing the relevant work so it's a little
bit of a tangent like it's not directly
answering the question but like I think
that's a really important like just
Discovery process for any new community
yeah yeah I I this is a conversation
right so I don't think you missed any
questions
um no thank you Sean we're Sean Sean
left no you're right there no it gave me
um uh it added a DOT for me and like the
the framework of going from like user to
participation which is ownership uh
that's in between and getting the sense
of ownership
um where and I don't know too much about
like the healthcare industry and how
that's like transitioning into
um letter based
um applications not sure what else to uh
call it whatever it's fine
um
yeah Healthcare seems like a an
interesting case because that's where
ownership ties to like this very um
intrinsic unique ownership over your own
body like it makes it very tangible
um and if we want to expand ownership to
communities you first need that sense of
ownership over the community that you
are impacted by decisions that are made
the same as your impacted by decisions
that doctors would make over your own
health care
um so yeah just added that question in
my mind at least on how do we first
create ownership over the community
before you
um ask or try and incentivize people to
participate in it
um yeah starting to draw framework here
awesome
I just want to add a quick point that
um with designing ZK stuff
um I feel strongly that I don't want
people to feel polarized from being
participants in creating the like
products that use zero knowledge like it
sounds sciency or mathy and
um I think we have this like obligation
to make it approachable so that people
like people know what they want why do
we have to only follow former models of
saying like we'll figure out what they
need and design for them when we could
try something different where people
can like co-create the experiences that
they want
hi
um my name is Manu and I'm one of the
founders of doing good also found the
member of API 3 Dao and a couple of
other dials that I participate
um I really like the conversation
however I have a couple of things that
is bothering me uh quite a lot
um
yeah most of us are here building tools
as you said for ourselves
but most of the people that are building
the space are actually from very
privileged countries
and yeah basically those tools are being
built are not being built for the people
that actually need it
um and that bothers me a lot also
another thing that bothers me is that we
are using a lot of terms or recreating
these new terms like
um let's say stable coins which are not
really stable we know that they're not
stable or we call them soulbound tokens
what the is that you know
um and yeah it's it's used very
confusing for people that are outside of
the space
um it's not really inclusive when we are
creating these new terms that cannot
even be translated when we talk about
staking I don't even know how to say
that in Spanish
um I don't even I need to explain it all
the a time to people so I think that we
are getting to a trap
um when we are creating all of these new
terms and so on
um we're trying to onboard people and
we're trying to import masses as we say
but in reality we're just on boarding
other gigs
um and yeah it's to me it's it's really
bad and we say that also we're creating
a more decentralized space more
inclusive space more reality is just a
bunch of white people just doing that
just
talking between them
um so you know are we really doing what
we say that we're doing
um are we really using their language
and the tools that we have for inviting
new people to join us or I would just
you know try to be cool
thank you for okay
um
really thank you for like bringing up
some really challenging and like really
important points um
and there were a couple of different
things there that I don't know maybe we
can get to all of them but
maybe let's start with the first one
which was
um
yeah that we tend to be sort of insular
like we're sort of Designing for the
people that we see and
um this community is you know we would
like to think that it's Global but it's
really difficult to figure out how to
reach people and we end up designing in
ways that like make sense in my brain
but uh in a place that I've never been
in a culture that I've never experienced
in a language that I don't speak it can
be really difficult to predict which
also comes back to kind of what Rachel
was saying that
um there's a difference between trying
to figure out what people want and then
make it and then like this sort of
hopefully interactive process of
inviting people in to like figure out
what it is they need and help them help
themselves build it
um and there's this problem of like
literally knowing how to find those
people
um is is really challenging like I don't
necessarily know where to look and to um
try to come with like prescriptive
Solutions or like
you know go out with my binoculars
looking for the person in the third
world country that I'm supposed to
design for
um it's really difficult to um
to kind of know where to start with that
sometimes so I did want to ask like
panelists and and our new friend
um
kind of how do you think about like we
tend to when we do you know user
research or
um try to like measure the impact of the
things that we make
um we rely on kind of simplified like
easy things like analytics
um and like metrics that
they're satisfying because you can count
a number and think it's the right number
and check a box but they're actually
limiting and kind of useless and opaque
and don't really particularly connect to
reality
um and they end up also
like leading you to design for the
people that are already there
um and certainly not like leading you
into new new areas or like inviting new
people in
so wondering how you think about like
how to measure success or how to like
get richer better feedback and have that
be a more interactive process and just
sort of open
the borders of it so that more people
are able to participate
um and more people are able to kind of
create
hey guys I'm raghav I'm building a
community-led fundraising platform I'll
be not quadratic
um but just to like on what you said I
often think and it's something I was
thinking earlier like for quadratic
funding right mathematically speaking is
not the most straightforward thing but
you know like let's say in the third
world today like in India I'm from India
a lot of people don't have bank accounts
right the goal is not to teach them how
a bank works the goal is perhaps first
let's get them bank account let's tell
them okay this is why it's good for you
you don't need to know the economics of
it yet so I think a similar thing can
happen here where like our first goal is
as long as you can get the service that
we need let's get that to them and over
time as that leads to whatever
Prosperity we hope for then we can reach
a point where we can have education
around those things if we just keep
waiting for education and just for that
we don't provide them what we can
provide them today I think that would be
a misstep
also just to oh yeah
but yeah no I think that's like my
biggest
um you know I think learning from the
last few years is
um that like you need politics to be
like
um what's the word so like
pre-figurative like they need to like
basically like you need to like take
action towards the thing that you want
to see in the world in some way I think
crypto does that by definition like we
just build things we like they sometimes
don't work you know at all um sometimes
they work kind of okay but they're kind
of janky
and then hopefully sometimes they work
really well and like are sustainable for
like long term I think
the biggest challenge I see aside from
dropping my phone apparently is that we
really don't have a you know we talk
we're talking here about like
participants but we don't have a really
good way to do that globally as author
mentioned and I think that's still a
missing Point here we're still doing
better than like you know meta or
something like that we're like you're
literally just in a room and like
Silicon Valley like designing for a
community that's Global like as if
that's going to just magically work for
everyone
um I think there's more like local first
principles in thinking here
um but we still don't have that really
broad Global participation I think it's
one of the reasons that like you know we
sort of like as a community need to be
having more conferences in places like
Bogota to like participate more with
local communities
um we probably are not doing that enough
but I'm hopeful that we're like getting
you know in the right direction there
quick response to that because honestly
I I do think there's a lot that we can
learn from traditional companies
um in this area of how do you design for
local communities
um even being at a conference I'm not
sure how many people actually go outside
of the venue to explore
um personally big proponent of field
field research a trip to Venezuela was
most insightful in my last five years in
crypto
um
yeah just to kind of make the point I
think there's a lot that we can learn
from traditional companies in how do we
um
how do we study and work with local
communities there is a reason that some
of these companies are so successful to
the extent that we believe it's
detrimental because there are some
things that I managed to do really well
and understanding uh needs on the ground
in local communities is is definitely
one of those
things dream job
um
maybe to Riff on that a little bit one
of the
challenges I found in trying to get more
on the ground
experiences and insights and
connecting to communities to work and
design alongside
has been that
it requires a certain degree of openness
in what we're building because you go on
like you land you put your feet on the
ground and you're like oh my God this is
never going to work but you've already
spent six months like developing for
something that's then not going to work
um and so that that open mindset plus
the funding
um to that like uncertainty of what the
outcome will be
um is I think something that as a
community we can all contribute to
um
how not sure maybe there's someone here
as a better answer
the question that I actually came to ask
so we speak about obviously ownership
and subserverity and stuff and that
obviously comes at a cost of like fine
there's a lot more finality of action in
the blockchain right once you sign
something you sign it so do you think
the future of these apps or anything
that we build in this new internet is
more about communicating to people that
your mistakes or your mistakes and
that's okay or is it more about making
sure systems are sort of they have the
scope for mistakes which can write be
from simple steps like and are you sure
pop-up box all the way to maybe some
kind of like magical reversible
transactions on chain I don't know
does anyone have a response to that
I mean it's it's a great question right
and it's sort of the opposite of
um or it could be the opposite of the
thing that I said at the very beginning
about sort of putting like bumpers on
everything so that you just can't screw
up even if you wanted to
um and there is this really interesting
dynamic between trying to give people
choices and then not sort of putting
people in danger by
um just like throwing them into a snake
pit without even telling them what a
snake is first like that you have to
give people the tools to not make those
horrific mistakes
um but also
um not do that in a way that limits them
from making like all of the choices that
you would want them to have
um I know you hello
I didn't know when the session was
ending so I was going to chill at the
end but I just wanted I just wanted to
thank you guys for the conversation but
I think and in that regard as far as
like
how do we create ecosystems where people
are more able to make mistakes Etc I
think a lot of it has to do with
Progressive disclosure people getting
used to some of this technology as they
get aware of what's really happening on
the front end on the back end and on the
actual protocol level
so just kind of walking them through
that focus of like okay this is this is
some sort of hand-holded guided
functionalities of how you actually get
into this ecosystem I think there's a
lot of Education communication around
language all those things that you guys
have already kind of highlighted that
will lead us to that but it is a long
journey like people need to come and
play with this some of this stuff and we
don't have the opportunity or test Nets
or all these resources where people can
experiment with some of this stuff and
not have that risk factor associated
with it so I think gaming and all these
other mechanisms of like pull apps Etc
provide you that opportunity to
interface with this technology and learn
a little bit more but we need more use
cases we need more creative thinking on
some of this functionality for people to
actually using it
that we do we have to wrap up now
yeah I want to thank all of you and also
was brave enough to come up here and
join us you guys brought a lot of really
good points and good questions
um so yeah thank you for that and I
wanted to end on another exact
Mandeville quote if I could just there
we go
um
so and I think Achilles actually wrapped
this up rather nicely for me to build
whatever you're building for everyone we
must expect and empower the best from
anyone
so thank you everybody let's go out and
do do that